D&D 3.x [3.5] Crit stacking?

[Spatzimaus]

I think I see where the designers were coming from. Crits are just too GOOD. With core rules it might not be so bad, but once you start adding in splatbook material and PrCs it gets really ugly, because many of these abilities synergize too well.
Enemies basically fell into two categories:
Undead and Constructs: immune to sneak attacks, immune to critical hits. Rogues stood around twiddling their thumbs a lot, and all those neat weapon enchantments that activate on crits were useless.
Everyone Else: Against the majority of creatures in the game, a high threat range means a consistent damage increase. If I threaten on a 12-20, that means I'm increasing my damage output by 45%. If you only have a x2 multiplier it's not so bad, but this is where the splatbook stuff gets really unbalanced.

So, if the DM throws an undead or construct at the party, a big part of my combat ability is useless. It's worst for the Rogue with the 7d6 sneak attack, he goes from damage machine to useless in one shot.
On the other hand, any OTHER enemy gets swiss-cheesed consistently, because the phenomenal threat range turned the ability from an occasional boost to a very consistent damage increase.

Personally, I'd love to see more of a graduated system. Take the Fortification armor enhancement: what if that was a general monster ability? So, Constructs and Undead have 75% Fortification, Outsiders and Dragons have 25%, and so on. Maybe add it to some PrCs, too. Basically, take the consistency out of it and a lot of the complaints go away. Rogues might be happy since they can now Sneak Attack undead/constructs (it just won't work 75% of the time).

If you don't mind the consistency part, Plane Sailing's fix works just fine, and is still balanced in the axe-vs-sword debate.

 

[sithramir]

The balance of the weapons is still there.

The problem is not the multipliers. Who cares if its x3 or x4 its a lot of damage but its a critical and should be. The problem is that being GUARANTEED a hit on EVERY attack with a 9+ (with splat books) or 12 plus regular is insane. Oh my fighter has 4 attacks and his 4th attack is +1 to hit but he's GUARANTEED a hit over 50 percent of the time with it.

Hello Dragon sir with 47 ac. let me attack you. Hit, Crit(not a crit but still a hit), miss, Crit (not a crit but still a hit). Hmm i'm doing insane damage because of it whether or not my attacks would really hit it was a crit range. That 4th attack rolled a 9 +1 = 10 and hit ac 47. Thats insane that a roll of 9 hits a dragon on that attack.

 

[Staffan]

The problem is not the multipliers. Who cares if its x3 or x4 its a lot of damage but its a critical and should be. The problem is that being GUARANTEED a hit on EVERY attack with a 9+ (with splat books) or 12 plus regular is insane. Oh my fighter has 4 attacks and his 4th attack is +1 to hit but he's GUARANTEED a hit over 50 percent of the time with it.

Eh... no. An attack roll that falls within the threat range of a weapon but is a miss, is still a miss. The extra threat range is pretty much wasted.

That's why it's usually better to load up on threat range enhancers on heavy-crit weapons instead of high-threat weapons... less chance of "wasting" the threat range. You are quite likely to miss people on a roll of 13 which makes 12-20/x2 not so good, but you'll rarely miss on an 18 which makes 18-20/x4 excellent.

 

[Henry]

Re: GRRR!

Originally posted by satori01 It makes no sense to me that a magicaly keen weapon would essentially be less sharp in the hands of a skilled user,(ala improved critical).[/B]

I don't see it by that logic; rather, I see it that the "Keen" enchantment replaces the natural skill that an improved critical user would have. Therefore, I see it more like a metamagic rod or such, than as a stackable ability.

For the reasoning, while I can't say that crit-stacking is outrageous, it is counterintuitive to what a critical hit is. I myself don't like crit ranges so high that people are rolling multiple damage dice every single hit, even if it is d4's or d6's.

For me, it's a nice change. For others, their mileage may vary, just as with haste, harm, hold person, and half a dozen other issues.

 

[Henry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GRRR!

Hong "I am especially taken by WANGERING 45% of the time" Ooi

Keep doing that and you'll go blind.

 

[isoChron]

The balance of the weapons is still there.

The problem is not the multipliers. Who cares if its x3 or x4 its a lot of damage but its a critical and should be. The problem is that being GUARANTEED a hit on EVERY attack with a 9+ (with splat books) or 12 plus regular is insane. Oh my fighter has 4 attacks and his 4th attack is +1 to hit but he's GUARANTEED a hit over 50 percent of the time with it.

Hello Dragon sir with 47 ac. let me attack you. Hit, Crit(not a crit but still a hit), miss, Crit (not a crit but still a hit). Hmm i'm doing insane damage because of it whether or not my attacks would really hit it was a crit range. That 4th attack rolled a 9 +1 = 10 and hit ac 47. Thats insane that a roll of 9 hits a dragon on that attack.

Errrr, I always thought you must hit first and then you can see if it is a threat/crit.
Only exception is the natural 20 (always a hit).

So if you role a 19 on your longsword attack but that isn't enough to hit the AC of the opponent you can forget your threat/crit. You don't do any damage. On a natural 20 you have a hit AND a threat (if the foe is vulnerable to crits).

 

[XCorvis]

Re: Re: GRRR!

Originally posted by Mike Sullivan So then your feeling is that Andy Collin's stated reason for the change is a direct lie?

What is his reason?

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: GRRR!

For the reasoning, while I can't say that crit-stacking is outrageous, it is counterintuitive to what a critical hit is. I myself don't like crit ranges so high that people are rolling multiple damage dice every single hit, even if it is d4's or d6's.

But this sort of thing only crops up when you are talking about relatively high level characters. Basically, a combat oriented character who is 8th or 9th level should be really good at combat, and that includes scoring critical hits on a regular basis that the common warrior only dreams of making.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GRRR!

Indeed.

I'm glad that my hot pink WANG has made a believer out of you. I find that it has that effect on people.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Re: Re: Re: GRRR!

What is his reason?

That crits aren't "special" enough in 3.0.

Which is, in my opinion, a pretty inane reason, but it's notably NOT an evil plot to justify the Power Attack change.