D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Druids - what to do about them?

[kenobi65]

What if you didn't bother with Transmute Metal to Wood and got a woodworker to carve you a suit of armor, then cast Ironwood on that?

Seems it'd be as good as a standard suit, no loss of AC points at all...

That's another option, I suppose, though I think it'd be a DM call as to whether a suit that's carved out of wood is "as good as a standard suit" -- the precedent of Transmute Metal to Wood certainly suggests to me that it's not.

 

[pbd]

What if you didn't bother with Transmute Metal to Wood and got a woodworker to carve you a suit of armor, then cast Ironwood on that?

Seems it'd be as good as a standard suit, no loss of AC points at all...

...or get yourself a monk's belt or, even better, multiclass to monk.

I am currently playing a druid 11, that is multiclassing to monk starting at 12. That wisdom to AC thing ain't to cr@ppy for a high wisdom druid. Also, it works well with a "melee" focussed druid. The charcter actually focusses on fighting in wildshape, but only wildshapes to tiger (other forms may be better, but it's what he does) for fighting, with the rare use of dire hawk if flight is needed.

By the way, this charcetr is not overpowering in our current core-only campaign. He can stand with the well played and thought out charcters, but would only dominate when conditions favor it. Admittedly the chracter doesn't summon, he feels it is wrong to compell animals to fight, and often die, for him. However, he wouldn't be overpowered even if he did make use of all his available shapes and spells, a crafty DM can challenge most characters.

Oh, produce flame being overpowered is a joke (the above charcter hasn't used it in 4 or 5 levels). The druid has limited offensive spells, a few cool ones but nothing uber (why no horrid wilting, it fits the druid concept), and good battlefield control spells, healing is mediocre because of the lack of spontineity and increased spell level, and some decent utility spells that can be good if you know to prepare them.

 

[Shadowdweller]

- Transmute Metal to Wood costs the transmuted armor 2 points of armor class. While Ironwood looks like it can keep the armor from suffering the further degradation of AC that comes from being hit with a 19 or 20 ("as durable as their normal steel counterparts"), there's nothing in Ironwood that says it reverses that initial 2 point loss.

By a hyperliteralist interpretation, yes. Seems very much like the INTENT of the Ironwood spell, however, is that this does NOT occur:

While remaining natural wood in almost every way, ironwood is as strong, heavy, and resistant to fire as steel.

That's another option, I suppose, though I think it'd be a DM call as to whether a suit that's carved out of wood is "as good as a standard suit"

The text of Ironwood more or less states that it IS as good:

[With appropriate crafting]...you can fashion wooden items that function as steel items.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

That's another option, I suppose, though I think it'd be a DM call as to whether a suit that's carved out of wood is "as good as a standard suit" -- the precedent of Transmute Metal to Wood certainly suggests to me that it's not.

It's not as good as a standard steel suit. That's why you have to cast Ironwood on it! Now, once Ironwood is cast, it's no longer wooden armor (like the -2AC wooden armor created by Transmute Metal to Wood,) it's "ironwood" armor...as strong as steel.

Edit to add: Let me explain it another way. The -2 to AC conferred by Transmute Metal to Wood isn't due to the steel suit being weakened. It's due to the fact that wood is weaker than steel, and your once steel armor is now wood.

But once you cast Ironwood on a wooden suit of armor, it's no longer just wood. It's wood that's as strong as steel. Hence no -2 AC.

 

[kenobi65]

It's not as good as a standard suit. That's why you have to cast Ironwood on it! Now, once Ironwood is cast, it's no longer wooden armor (like the -2AC wooden armor created by Transmute Metal to Wood,) it's "ironwood" armor...as strong as steel.

OK, I'll grant you guys this one...though it'd still be a good thing if the description of Ironwood made that clearer.

Now, where to find a woodcarver capable of making chainmail.

 

[pbd]

Now, where to find a woodcarver capable of making chainmail.

I actually knew this guy in college that could carve interlocking chains, but it would have taken him about 20 years to do a suit of chainmail....

 

[Particle_Man]

I would replace Druid with Spirit Shaman. This gets rid of wildshape and animal companion in one fell swoop, and thus the "powergamer" aspects go away.

 

[satori01]

I've Dm'd for a druid for over a year and a half now, from 1-11th, and I have found a Druid to be useful in some way in almost any circumstance, but not overpowering.
BTW I run a city campaign, so theoreticaly the druid is at a disadvantage,(though I find that to be hogwash).

1) Animal Companion: The animal companion is a nice benefit, basically a druid can be a pure stand back spell caster, and still get some melee damage done. Animals however have low ACs, and often times can absorb more healing resources then damage dealt. I can not emphasize enough how low animal ACs are, as this impacts SNA, Wildshape, and the Druids Animal Companion.
Tacticaly an Animal Companion is good for flanking bonuses, Coup De Graces, and whatever bonuses,(trip, pounce, etc) they have added onto their attack.
Role play wise the Animal Companion is a mini cohort, the druid in my campanion has spent quite a bit of time and resources on her various animal companions, even going so far as to buy and then enchant magical barding, and other magic items for her animal companion. Good thing druids can get by with less in terms of character wealth, because good role playing druids will probably spend money on their animals.

2) Wildshape: wildshape is a great abillity but probably not for the reason people think for. Any really open ended power like wildshape or polymorph runs the risk of "breaking" an encounter or letting a player do something unexpected. For me I like that as a DM, for other I can see how it is frustrating. Melee wise again animal ACs are extremely low. A dire lion has an AC of 15. At 11th level an AC of 15 is butter.
Creative uses of melee wildshaping often involve chosing a form with a good grapple modifier to prevent grappling. Then again if a mob is getting that close to the druid to grapple him or her turning into a large animal, may not be feasible space wise.

3) Natural Spell: not a big deal in my book, other than it is essentially a must have feat for a druid. A druid in Dire Ape form standing back and casting a spell, is little different then a druid in normal form standing back and casting a spell. Again, very rarely will you see a druid in wildshape animal form casting a spell while in melee combat, a blown concentration skill check for casting defensively almost absolutely guareentes enough damage being dealt that the spell will be lost.
Even a flying wildshaped druid is not that big of deal, since most animals do not have perfect flight, which means no full round actions when in bird form as the druid must move forward, which means no SNA, no Call Lightning etc.

4) SNA: Summon Natures Allies is great for creating flanking bonuses, or speed bumps to slow the monsters down. A warrior is seperated and low on hit points, pop a SNA, summon mutiple animals to distract the mob the warrior is fighting, and place them strategicaly to block movement. I have seen a druid literaly surround a giant with Dire Wolves with a judicious use of SNA.
On the other hand I have also seen that same giant using a two handed weapon, power atttack, and great cleave kill almost all of those Dire Wolves in the same round.

5) Spell list: a druid has a decent spell list but not amazing. Druids can heal and divine, but not as well as clerics. Druids can be blasters, but generally not as well as wizards. Flame strike is a great spell, but it has a very small area of effect, and column effect areas can pose difficulty especially if one has allies above the area to be effected,(say on a balcony 30 feet above). Druids have many great spells, perfect for extremely limited applications. Stone shape, Contol water, repel vermin, stone tell, etc are all great spells, but often ones that might go unprepared, or unused if prepared. As an aside one of the best 5th level druid combos is Flaming sphere combined with Call Lightning. The Druid can move the flaming sphere with a move action, and call a bolt with a standard action. Even with this you are looking at one round to cast Flaming Sphere, one Full round to cast Call Lightning,(and thus not move the Flaming sphere that round), and then spending subsquent rounds controling your magics. Effective but very time consuming. Frankly overall I find Heat Metal and Call Lightning pathetic spells, no wizard or sorcerer would willingly take them if given the chance to. Awaken on the other hand......

 

[Dryfus]

I've played druids from time to time (more as NPCs than as PCs, however), but mostly seen them in play.

I haven't seen them dominating the party.

I have seen single-classed core only druids competing evenly or outpacing with extremely powergamed combinations such as Feral (pre-Races of Destiny) Half-Ogre Barbarian/Fighters/Psychic Warriors Raised By Bears, Fighter/Ranger/Soldier/Deepwood Snipers adding Dex to damage with repeater IK rifles, and characters who were getting Charisma to hit twice, to damage, to AC twice and to saves thrice.

Unless the balance of d20 is far, far better than I ever imagined, to the point where some of the allegedly most outrageous powergaming combos around are actually no better than a typical core class, the druid was holding his own OR OUTDOING setups that most DMs would ban without a second thought.

In my group, we decided that a single class of anything is better than any multiclass, because if you have 4 people in a party, and all of them are 8th level, and one is a 4/4 fighter/thief, and the others are all single class, the EL's for the party level outstrip the fighter/thiefs abilities...AKA, the DC's are higher than a 4th level thief can manage(most of the time, ie unless the thief is extreamly lucky). I remember reading something about "if you have a new charachter don't make them more than 3 levels lower than the party" somewhere. (I think the DMG???).


Just a thought.

 

[Thanee]

1) Animal Companion: The animal companion is a nice benefit, basically a druid can be a pure stand back spell caster, and still get some melee damage done. Animals however have low ACs, and often times can absorb more healing resources then damage dealt. I can not emphasize enough how low animal ACs are, ...

Heh. I think the animal companion in our party (~6th level) has one of the highest AC in the group. Together with the damage reduction, the celestial wolf is actually pretty tough.

Bye
Thanee