Tzarevitch
First Post
Olgar Shiverstone said:
I must agree. None of these abilities are what anyone would call powerful. They are all either quite trivial or are in fact a slight mitigation of a penalty.
Tzarevitch
3.5 Dwarves
- Thread starter Uruush
- Start date
I must agree. None of these abilities are what anyone would call powerful. They are all either quite trivial or are in fact a slight mitigation of a penalty.
Tzarevitch
BiggusGeekus@Work
Community Supporter
Anubis the Doomseer said:
Actually, no my group doesn't. No real reason, we just don't. Maybe I'll try a lasher next gme and change that.
By the way, welcome to the forums!
i would call "no movement penalty in medium and heavy armor" quite a large bonus, not a slight mitigation. the movement penalty in medium armor is the only thing keeping my 3.0 dwarf barbarian in light armor. with the barbarian fast movement ability, i've just caught up with the other PCs. to put on heavier armor would make me fall behind again. in 3.5, i can wear much heavier armor and still keep up with everyone. that's a big benefit.Tzarevitch said:
as far as the weapon familiarity goes, it can be quite powerful.
in 3.0, for a dwarf fighter or barbarian to dual-wield dwarven waraxes, it would cost three feats (Ambi, TWF, Exotic WP). that's 2nd level if he's a fighter, 3rd if he's a barbarian and he needs at least a 15 Dex, which is hardly common among dwarf characters.
in 3.5, a dwarf fighter or barbarian can dual-wield dwarven waraxes with one feat (TWF) and he can do so at 1st level with no Dex prereq. that's quite a power-up.
and this is coming from a player that loves dwarves and is currently playing a dwarf PC. all i've seen of 3.5 dwarves is additional benefits; i haven't heard anything about any mitigating factors. so it looks like they received a big power-up in relation to the other races.
Henry
Autoexreginated
My problem with the "dwarven bonuses" added to 3.5 is one of power creep.
As I understand it:
Humans get little to no change. Humans, with their skill bonus and their feat bonus, can stand pretty well on their own nowadays.
Half-elves gain a +2 to diplomacy and 1 other skill (sense motive?) to add to their bonuses to spot, listen, elven blood bonuses to enchantment saves, and multiclassing. Not the best, but not worthless, either.
Halflings do very well for themselves with their small stature and a suite of defensive bonuses.
Gnomes received some useful abilities, and have received a significant power-up, though not many would consider them too powerful.
Dwarves in 3E, however, were quite powerful to begin with. +2 to con, darkvision vs. nightvision, +2 stonecunning, +2 to poison AND spells, +1 to hit goblinoids, +4 dodge vs. giants, +2 to appraise metal or stone, +2 to craft metal or stone. Add to this a stability bonus, a familiarity with one quite powerful exotic weapon, and no move penalty for bulky armor, and you create a package of abilities that dwarfs (pun intended) the other races' abilities. I don't see the need to the addition of insult to injury posed by this.
Maybe the proof is in the playtesting, but it seems like something that will bring even more dwarven fighter multiclasses out of the woodwork than there are now.
Then again, getting the chance to play a mid-level Dwarven fighter/wizard two-handed wielding a Dwarven Waraxe and casting stilled spells like no tomorrow could be fun...
As I understand it:
Humans get little to no change. Humans, with their skill bonus and their feat bonus, can stand pretty well on their own nowadays.
Half-elves gain a +2 to diplomacy and 1 other skill (sense motive?) to add to their bonuses to spot, listen, elven blood bonuses to enchantment saves, and multiclassing. Not the best, but not worthless, either.
Halflings do very well for themselves with their small stature and a suite of defensive bonuses.
Gnomes received some useful abilities, and have received a significant power-up, though not many would consider them too powerful.
Dwarves in 3E, however, were quite powerful to begin with. +2 to con, darkvision vs. nightvision, +2 stonecunning, +2 to poison AND spells, +1 to hit goblinoids, +4 dodge vs. giants, +2 to appraise metal or stone, +2 to craft metal or stone. Add to this a stability bonus, a familiarity with one quite powerful exotic weapon, and no move penalty for bulky armor, and you create a package of abilities that dwarfs (pun intended) the other races' abilities. I don't see the need to the addition of insult to injury posed by this.
Maybe the proof is in the playtesting, but it seems like something that will bring even more dwarven fighter multiclasses out of the woodwork than there are now.
Then again, getting the chance to play a mid-level Dwarven fighter/wizard two-handed wielding a Dwarven Waraxe and casting stilled spells like no tomorrow could be fun...
DonAdam
Explorer
Keep in mind that +2 on saves vs spells and poison covers the vast majority of the saves made by a character over his career. That's almost as good as 3 feats.
I'll probably be changing their ability penalty to Dex and losing the +2 on saves vs spells, which will be a feat that only dwarves can take, but once they do they cannot cast arcane spells.
I'll probably be changing their ability penalty to Dex and losing the +2 on saves vs spells, which will be a feat that only dwarves can take, but once they do they cannot cast arcane spells.
coyote6
Adventurer
Yeah, it seems like they're really encouraging dwarves in heavy armor. Which is, perhaps, a good thing, because my group has been reluctant to have their dwarf PCs wear non-mithral medium armor, or any heavy armor, without also picking up a certain pair of boots. The mobility hit is just too much. One dwarf (N)PC spent more time hustling and/or running towards the fight than actually making attack rolls, in more than one battle.
(Of course, poor halflings and gnomes are still stuck with that problem, plus having to hope they can get appropriately-sized weapons and armor. Maybe they're discouraging gnome and halfling fighters...)
FWIW, I adopted the (erroneous) MM version of the dwarves' saving throw bonuses, in which the bonus to saves vs. spells only applies to Will saves. I like it, because I like the flavor of strong-willed stubborn-as-the-mountains dwarves rather than quasi-magic resistant (but not like other magic resistant creatures) dwarves. It also makes them slightly less advantage-laden.
(Of course, poor halflings and gnomes are still stuck with that problem, plus having to hope they can get appropriately-sized weapons and armor. Maybe they're discouraging gnome and halfling fighters...)
FWIW, I adopted the (erroneous) MM version of the dwarves' saving throw bonuses, in which the bonus to saves vs. spells only applies to Will saves. I like it, because I like the flavor of strong-willed stubborn-as-the-mountains dwarves rather than quasi-magic resistant (but not like other magic resistant creatures) dwarves. It also makes them slightly less advantage-laden.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Anubis the Doomseer said:
Actually, I play a druid in a party with a monk, so we see plenty of animals. The monk isn't high enough level to get improved trip, and few animals have the Trip ability [nitpick: it's different from Improved Trip]. Tripping opponents is extremely rare in our games.
And bull rush is even rarer: although there have been a small handful of occasions when someone has used the maneuver, you're almost always better off beating someone in the head than you are shoving them around the room.
I maintain these changes are small. All the same, I wouldn't object if the +2 spell save bonus went away: I see Henry's point that the dwarf didn't need the changes to begin with.
Daniel
MadScientist
First Post
The current dwarf is already an extremely efficient choice for a fighter type character. The main reasons being the +2Con/-2Cha attribute exchange and the +2 save bonus vs spells and poison. These two things alone are basically equivalent to the humans bonus feat and bonus skill points. (The cha penalty isn't really a penalty for a fighter, the +2 con is as good as the bonus skill points and the dwarf save bonuses are easily equal to a feat.)
The only disadvantage the dwarf has in comparison with the human at his point is the movement penalty. In exchange for this the dwarf gets darkvision, stonecunning, +1 atk vs goblinoids, +4 AC vs giants, +2 bonus to appraise checks and +2 bonus to on craft checks. Admitedly the skill bonuses are pretty much flavor and the attack and AC bonuses only come up sometimes. Darkvision is great ability however and may be worth the movement penalty on its own! (Boots of striding and springing cost less than gogles of the night.)
The dwarf doesn't need more bonuses, especially ones that make them better fighters. With the free Exotic weapon proficiency, and no move penalty in heavy armor the dwarf is a very efficient choice, to the point of being overpowered IMO. I bet that you could take most human fighter concepts, especially if they wear heavy armor and make them a dwarf fighter, with the same ability rolls/wealth, that is superior in every meaningful way.
The only disadvantage the dwarf has in comparison with the human at his point is the movement penalty. In exchange for this the dwarf gets darkvision, stonecunning, +1 atk vs goblinoids, +4 AC vs giants, +2 bonus to appraise checks and +2 bonus to on craft checks. Admitedly the skill bonuses are pretty much flavor and the attack and AC bonuses only come up sometimes. Darkvision is great ability however and may be worth the movement penalty on its own! (Boots of striding and springing cost less than gogles of the night.)
The dwarf doesn't need more bonuses, especially ones that make them better fighters. With the free Exotic weapon proficiency, and no move penalty in heavy armor the dwarf is a very efficient choice, to the point of being overpowered IMO. I bet that you could take most human fighter concepts, especially if they wear heavy armor and make them a dwarf fighter, with the same ability rolls/wealth, that is superior in every meaningful way.
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Tom Cashel
First Post
What the "lack of movement penalty" amounts to is a bonus across editions. We don't yet know what all the other races are getting, but I definitely think this adds to the dwarf's comparative power.
But so what? Isn't it a team sport? If the party has one tank of a dwarf, doesn't that benefit all of them?
But so what? Isn't it a team sport? If the party has one tank of a dwarf, doesn't that benefit all of them?
