D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Forsaker

[Saeviomagy]

I can't. It doesn't matter what magical items the Forsaker gets. So, everyone splits up the magic and the Forsaker gets his equal share, just it consists of mostly stuff no one else wants. He destroys that stuff. Hey, have an evil magical item that needss destroyed? Let the Forsaker do it and he gains power from it. Kills to birds with one stone.

Whenever I've played, stuff gets handed out on a "who can use it" basis, and anything left over goes into party treasure. And usually ends up being very useful - just because it didn't fit someone's primary focus doesn't mean that it's useless. Trashing all that stuff would be a tragedy.

Doing it to support the (relatively insignificant) DR of a fighter who you can't heal (or fly, or invisibility, or waterbreathe, or...) seems like pissing on a housefire.

Especially when he does it at such a terrific rate of knots. I mean maybe it would be different if it was on some sort of scheme which meant that he wasn't spending 1100 gp a day on keeping it up.

Sure the Foresaker could be a problem but isn't it better to work with him them against him if he is going to be in the party? And what "crap" opf his are they putting up with?

Think how many situations in the average D&D game are handled with magic - now imagine one player refusing to take any of those solutions.

Magic gets rid of a lot of the mundane, boring part of D&D - the stuff that's entertaining for a little bit at low levels, but gets quite tedious to do over and over again. The forsaker cannot take advantage of that, nor does he have comparable advantages to make up for it.

Finally where's this "if he's going to be in the party" coming from? You're going to put up with him just because he's caught PCitis?

And he destroys the items and gets no abilities from it. So, he no longer trusts the party. Instead of working with him, you have made the situation much worse then it needs to be becasue you have to be a bias against a class.

The only ability he gets (from magic destruction) is DR, which can be overcome by magical weapons. So if the party keeps telling him the monsters and the like are using magic weapons, he never really has reason to doubt them.

No, it isn't. What conflict? If there is conflict over the class, then there was probably conflict in the group before hand. I can not see a sensible group of friends coming to conflict over this.

As far as I remember, the amount of magical items needed by this guy are about 1100 gp worth per day. That's not exactly insignificant.

Add that to the fact that any adventure is going to take a lot longer to complete (because you have to wait for him to heal all the time), and you're throwing away huge amounts of treasure.

Add that to the fact that he's significantly less effective than any regular fighter, and he's not looking like a good party member.

Add that to the fact that whenever there's a quick and easy solution to a problem, you can't use it because he doesn't like it.

Finally add in the fact that his class (according to the description) hates at least 50% of the party, but grudgingly puts up with them, and you've got a losing formula par exellence.

It's almost like playing an evil character in a good aligned group, only even then the evil character isn't going to reject the help of the other PCs.

 

[Crothian]

Whenever I've played, stuff gets handed out on a "who can use it" basis, and anything left over goes into party treasure. And usually ends up being very useful - just because it didn't fit someone's primary focus doesn't mean that it's useless. Trashing all that stuff would be a tragedy.

Obviously, not everyone does it that way. There are always items people have no use for like those weapos n+1 when people have +2's and better, potions, etc. Plus he gets use out of the items. just not the same use someone else might.

Doing it to support the (relatively insignificant) DR of a fighter who you can't heal (or fly, or invisibility, or waterbreathe, or...) seems like pissing on a housefire.Especially when he does it at such a terrific rate of knots. I mean maybe it would be different if it was on some sort of scheme which meant that he wasn't spending 1100 gp a day on keeping it up.

DR is never insiginificant. And one can cast these spells on the Forsaker, they might not always work but its not hard to work around. Plus, it doesn't have to happen every day. The Forsaker can live without destroying things and thus no DR for weeks at a time especiually if they aren't out adventureing.

Think how many situations in the average D&D game are handled with magic - now imagine one player refusing to take any of those solutions.Magic gets rid of a lot of the mundane, boring part of D&D - the stuff that's entertaining for a little bit at low levels, but gets quite tedious to do over and over again. The forsaker cannot take advantage of that, nor does he have comparable advantages to make up for it.

Situations that need magic: few. Mundane and boring? Hardly. You can still do all this stuff, just not willing. Obviously, if the party is going to cheat and lie to him...might as well cast spells on him without his permission too. :\

Finally where's this "if he's going to be in the party" coming from? You're going to put up with him just because he's caught PCitis?

So you force him to make a character that goes along with what you want? Perhaps you should be having a character that works better with his. PCitis is part of the game. But again you work with him and not against him.

The only ability he gets (from magic destruction) is DR, which can be overcome by magical weapons. So if the party keeps telling him the monsters and the like are using magic weapons, he never really has reason to doubt them.

Wow, your people really have no problems with lieing. They do get Sense Motive as a class skill, so he can proble beat that zero ranks in bluff most of the party has. For the lies to work they all have to lie to him, he only needs to succeed against one of them. And how do the other characters know what his DR is over come by anyway?

As far as I remember, the amount of magical items needed by this guy are about 1100 gp worth per day. That's not exactly insignificant. Add that to the fact that any adventure is going to take a lot longer to complete (because you have to wait for him to heal all the time), and you're throwing away huge amounts of treasure.

Its 100gp per point, so ya 1100 assuming 10th level in the class. And it doesn't have to happen every day. He can pick and choose when he does it. Wait to heal? you can cast spells on him, he has fast healing? I think your being impatient.

Add that to the fact that he's significantly less effective than any regular fighter, and he's not looking like a good party member. Add that to the fact that whenever there's a quick and easy solution to a problem, you can't use it because he doesn't like it. Finally add in the fact that his class (according to the description) hates at least 50% of the party, but grudgingly puts up with them, and you've got a losing formula par exellence.

It's almost like playing an evil character in a good aligned group, only even then the evil character isn't going to reject the help of the other PCs.

Less effective is arguible as is regular fighter, but that's not the point. The Forsaker can be played many ways, and hate of the other PCs is not the only way. The Forsaker as you have proiven is not for every one or every party. I imagine most people are going to be biased against them and their unusual ways. And that can be a fun conflict to role play in a game. And for those of willing to excpet the challenge, the fun is a great reward.

 

[IamIan]

forsaker

I personally love the forsaker class...

I always played it as the Person who tells others that magic is THE source of ALL Evil and he lives his life by example. He doesn't go around smashing all the party members magic stuff he does from time to time point out the evils / dangers / dependancy of magic... or Points out other non-magic ways of doing the same thing... He doesn't have to let people cast magic on him so his SR and saves go into effect... doesn't mean party members can't cast magic anyway... but if a Spell caster casts fireball on the fighters up front becuase he wants to kill the orcs and kills or almost kills the fighters too, those fighters would probably be mad at the spell caster too... I mean 3rd degree burns does't make too many friends... careful casting of spells is always a party plus forsaker or no...

DR is the only thing lost by not destroying magic and a non-Magical DR of 3/- from Full plate Adamantine is a good substitute.. or the DR from Barbarian... or the DR from Dwarven Defender.

Forsakers make great fighters SR, Fast Healing, Extra Ability scores, Natural Armor AR, Slipery Mind, D12 HP , Fighter level attack bonouses, only the monk gets better saves.... I think with the loss of heal spells the Fast heal shouldn't have the daily limit at some point like 10th Lv forsaker is Fast Heal with no daily limit.

Also The forsaker's Class skill of sense motive means it is pretty easy to make a forsaker that only those who have a class skill of bluff have any chance of being able to lie to... the forsaker puts his normal and additional ability scores toward wisdom for better will saves, Sense motive checks, Listen Checks... a Human fighter Lv3 Forsaker Lv10 has +3 Ability score by Character level 12 and an additional +10 From forsaker for a total of +13 Ability score... Put that in Wisdom with a good roll to start with max the ranks = tough to beat....

In fact a +10 Ability score if all in one ability is better than any non-Epic magic can give and split at +5 & +5 for two abilities is very near the +6 from the best belt of giant strength...

But a better use would be probably +13 to Str or Con... Imagine that rolled 18 Con +3 Normal Ability score increases +10 Forsaker = 31 Con at 13 th Lv... a +10 Modifier For a Monster 3d10+10d12+130 HP for up to 280 HP and do't forget that Adamantine DR 3/- for a 13th Lv Character... and the Natural AC Forsakers get from Con Modifier means that AC Base 10 +the Full Plate Adamantine +8 Large Shield +2 Dex +1 Natural AC +10 = 31 Also Very Respectable for 13th Lv Character... Characters Unless I am mistaken Naturally heal 1 HP / Lv so we start with 13 HP per Day Natutral Healing +50% with bed rest puts it up to 19HP / Day + Forsaker Fast Heal 50 / Day = 63 to 69 HP / Day.... Which is not bad... not as good as heal spells .. but not bad...

Forsaker's can be great allies to a group when the players can work together... Conflicts over players or alignments are more common and harder to get past than a forsaker class.

....

Now if you wanted too You could just make a Forsaker who destroyed the magic weapons and armor of his enemies in battle... Design him to be able to attack and do damage to weapons in battle and he would be very effective and the destruction of enemy magic weapons will make it easier for the group to survive encounters... how about 1 Lv Barbarian 2 Lvs Fighter 10 lvs Forsaker now Roll 18 Str +3 Natural Ability increase +10 Forsaker = Str 31 with again a +10 Modifer Rage Gives +4 up to Str 35 and Modifier up to +12 and a Base Attack of +13 / +6 / +1 Wielding a 2-Handed Adamantine Great Axe d12 Feats: Weapon Focus , Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Cleave , Great Cleave.... Adamantine Ignores the hardness of the item he hits HE Normally Hits with +27 / +20 / +15 and does d12+18 each hit.... what if he power attacks to full.... Hits +14 / +7 / +2 and does d12+44 each hit... up to 168 Damage per round with no criticals.... Improved Sunder gives a +4 to Hit when he attacks enemy's weapon... Great Cleave means he can try to clear the 5 foot circle around him if he downs each foe.... This version of forsaker is also great to known down doors / Walls with ... Not Many walls can stand up to ~168 Damage a round for very long.... 1 foot of stone only has 90 HP... and Adamantine ignores the hardness... Also the +4 Con from Rage means he gets +2 more Con Modifier with the Natural AR from Forsaker that means +2 Con -2 Rage to AC = no change to AC in Rage. Pluse still in full plate etc....

.........

What about the Ober Charismatic Forsaker... 18+13 Cha = 31 with a +10 Modifier he just convinces the people in towns he goes to that magic is evil and wrong...

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or the Ober Int Forsaker Int 31 = +10 Modifier He can know allot.... ... the forsaker has the potential to be the smartest character in the group.... or the game for that matter...

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I even once made a Forsaker Rogue ... Human Rogue 3 Levels... and then use the extra +10 Ability modifier toward Dex or Int and Suddenly the Rogue Forsaker can give any Magic Using Rogue a Run for thier money at most skills...plus is a far better fighter.

...

just my extra long 2 bits....

the forsaker class can be a great asset to the group ... but it has to be played with care... and the other members of the group have to not be asses...

my 2 bits.

 

[IamIan]

forsaker

forgot one other thing about forsakers....

I know they haven't 3.5ed them yet...

in 3.0 the description said thier SR stacks with all other sources of SR... which easily makes for a VERY high SR.... a Drow with 10 Character levels has a SR of 11+10 = 21.... a 10th level forsaker has SR 21 and the two as per the book stack... total SR 42..... Nearly impossible to beat...

 

[Tinker Gnome]

I always thought a character who had a tech type class like the Gnome Tinker PrC, had Forsaker levels too, from the War of the Lance Dragonlance book. A Forsaker might actually fit for a Krynnish Tinker Gnome too.

*Smashes magic item*

*Uses Jet Pack to fly off*

 

[Alzrius]

*Smashes magic item*

*Uses Jet Pack to fly off*

The thread necromancy was TOTALLY worth reading this!

 

[Tinker Gnome]

The thread necromancy was TOTALLY worth reading this!

Why thank you very much!

 

[Three_Haligonians]

The thread necromancy was TOTALLY worth reading this!

Indeed! Even I had forgotten about this thread.

Incidently, I am still waiting for the DM to start up her game.
I'm still gonna play a Forsaker too.


J from Three Haligonians

 

[Zimbel]

Hey all,

Anyone out there have leads on a 3.5 version of the Forsaker PrC?

My advice (we converted the class to 3.5 ourselves):
1) Change the DR to x/-. It's a bit stronger, but it's easier to track. Other options would be (oppoesed alignment) or Adamantite.
2) Extend the prestige class to take up, say, 12-13 levels. Otherwise, they get very weak at PC LV 19 or so in comparison to a straight frontliner.

In my opinion, the Forsaker is the worst of the attempts I've seen at creating a magicless PC (they're pretty good until the end of the class, when their power drops like a rock). Vow of Poverty is better (the implementation is overpowered, but it is balancable with major changes). Even better would be using an Iron Lore PC class.

 

[Zimbel]

I personally love the forsaker class...
In fact a +10 Ability score if all in one ability is better than any non-Epic magic can give and split at +5 & +5 for two abilities is very near the +6 from the best belt of giant strength...

My analysis suggests that for a front-line forsaker (the most obvious build), the optimal place to put the points in is Str.

Also note that a LV 20 Barbarian will lilkely have a +5 inherent and a +6 enhancement bonus to Str (and a weapon that's a total of +10 or so). By LV 20, a Barbarian10/Forsaker10 is far weaker against CR 20 opponents than a Barbarian 20. That's why I suggest extending the prestige class to, say 12 levels.