D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Forsaker

[Mistwell]

I always thought that Vow of Poverty replaced the Forsaker.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

And harbingers of evil (demons/devils) shouldn't have "good" as a weakness. And the haters of evil and the upholders of good (Angels) shouldn't have "evil" as a weakness.

I agree, they shouldn't. Its the single dumbest thing about the DR system. No need to perpetuate a dumb idea in another place.

I would play a forsaker as a recovering magic addict and only with a group (and dm) who was willing to accept it. The class has quite a bit of promise for good RP and combat.

 

[Crothian]

I always thought that Vow of Poverty replaced the Forsaker.

Except a forsaker never had to be good like the exalted VoP

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Except a forsaker never had to be good like the exalted VoP

and a vop character can cast spells and have spells cast on them... And a forsaker can use equipment, including special materials and alchemal items. Really they aren't that similar, they both give up owning magical items but then wildly diverge.

 

[Mistwell]

and a vop character can cast spells and have spells cast on them... And a forsaker can use equipment, including special materials and alchemal items. Really they aren't that similar, they both give up owning magical items but then wildly diverge.

There are certainly differences. However, the major drawback was lack of items, and the major benefit was a series of abilities similar to VOP. I'd say that is what they had in mind when they wrote VOP.

 

[Crothian]

There are certainly differences. However, the major drawback was lack of items, and the major benefit was a series of abilities similar to VOP. I'd say that is what they had in mind when they wrote VOP.

Mechancially they have similarities, but as for what the options are they are miles apart.

 

[IamIan]

Also note that a LV 20 Barbarian will lilkely have a +5 inherent and a +6 enhancement bonus to Str (and a weapon that's a total of +10 or so). By LV 20, a Barbarian10/Forsaker10 is far weaker against CR 20 opponents than a Barbarian 20. That's why I suggest extending the prestige class to, say 12 levels.

My take on the comparison:

Lv 20 Barbarian get +5 Attribute from 20 Levels at best a +6 from Belt of Giant Strength Mighty Rage Gives +8 for Con Rounds = at best 18 +2 Orc +5 Lvs +6 Belt +8 Rage = 39

Lv 9 Forsaker & Lv 11 Barbarian Same +5 Attribute from 20 Levels +9 from Forsaker instead of Belt +6 From Rage for Con Rounds at best 18 +2 Orc +5 Lvs +9 Forsaker +6 Rage = 40

so at best the Forsaker is still stronger... oh wait the forsaker's will only go down 6 points at the end of the rage... but the Lv 20 Barbarian goes down 8... so for 23 Hours out of the day the Forsaker is 3 points stronger than the 20th Lv Barbarian and for the short few seconds durring the rage the forsaker is still stronger but just by 1 point.

so Strength.. Forsaker Wins....

How about HP... nope they are both d12 so the HP are the same....

how about base attack...??? nope the same there too....

How about DR.... lets take a look.... Lv 20 Barbarian has 5 / - a good DR....
A Lv 11 Barbarian Lv 9 Forsaker has DR 2 / - Unless he wears Adamantine Full plate .. and I see no reason for him not to... if he did the DR would be 3 / -
But wait the forsaker gets another DR 8/ by 8th Level and 11/ by 10th level... which unless you have the right weapon will beat the lv 20 Barbarians 5 / - with an 8 / or 11 / btu even with the right weapon the forsaker has at least 2/ - and more than likely 3/ -
a bit on the fence with this one... no clear winner... forsaker better again most of the time... but for the person with jsut the right weapon .. then yes the lv 20 barbarian can under the right settings get a tiny advantage...

How about Healing... sorry Barbarian healing 20 HP per day... the forsaker heals the same 20 per day but when they fight he will also heal 3 per round for up to 50 points... so healing goes to the forsaker.... what about clerics casting heal spells ??? well... if you have 2 people than a second forsaker attacks the cleric and he is too buisy to help... and besides... clerics can still cast heal spells on a forsaker... the forsaker just saves... and if he wins only heals 1/2 instead of the full amount... still looks like advantage forsaker here....

What about AC??? another tough one... the barbarian you say can get +5 Armor... yeagh but the forsaker gets his Con as a Natural AC bonous... a 18 Con means +4.... so that means that the Forsaker is 1 point down in AC from the Barbarian hugh??? not exactly... you see when the barbarian rages... his AC drops -2.... but the forsaker gets to use the +3 additional Con ability bonous toward his AC... so this drops by -2 btu goes up by +3 for a net of +1 AC in Rage.... sooo... 23 hours a day the Lv 20 Barbarian is +1 better AC than the Forsaker Barbarian... but during a rage when it is most useful... the forsaker is +2 better than the Lv 20 Barbarian.... so... it looks close... I would give it to the forsaker... but it is migty close..

What About SR... The forsaker has SR 19 by Lv 9 and 20 by Lv 10 even if no race is choosen that has SR for it to stack with... that is easily equal to what the barbarina can buy... even if he still has the money after his +5 Full Plate... his +6 Belt and a few others I am sure.....

What about saves.... The forsaker Gets a +2 to start so his Base Fort will always be a point or 2 higher than the barbarian but he also gets Reflex at the same rate... so he will beat the Barbarian in Reflex saves easy..... what about will saves.... they are the same here... expect the slippery mind ability of the forsaker gives him and edge here.... so.... forsaker as a class wins here too... Can the Barbarian buy bonouses .. yes he can.... but those magic items are starting to add up ... +5 Full Plate... +6 Belt... Spell Resistance... now a bonus on Saves... probably something to try to deal with the healling.... also remember the required feats of Great fort.. lightning reflex .. and iron will all give +2 more to saves for the forsaker....

So .. in conclusion I would say the forsaker is easily on par with very very close to equal with the magic useing 20lv barbarian ... beat him in some things and gets beatten in a few too... but the forsaker has one last edge... that puts him over the top....

What happens when you have to fighting someone in a anti-magic field???? the forsaker keeps all of his powers and abilities.... the magic stops working and the barbarian finds himself very vulerable.... any time you fight a spell caster he can negate yoru magic items and turn them off... but not the forsaker.... and the forsaker's powers can not be stolen as the magic items can be and would be a mighty tasty target for me if I was a 10th or 15th level rogue the forsaker looks ok but the ober amount of magic on that barbarian is down right mouth wattering...

my 2 bits...

 

[Zimbel]

My take on the comparison:

Lv 20 Barbarian get +5 Attribute from 20 Levels at best a +6 from Belt of Giant Strength Mighty Rage Gives +8 for Con Rounds = at best 18 +2 Orc +5 Lvs +6 Belt +8 Rage = 39

Lv 9 Forsaker & Lv 11 Barbarian Same +5 Attribute from 20 Levels +9 from Forsaker instead of Belt +6 From Rage for Con Rounds at best 18 +2 Orc +5 Lvs +9 Forsaker +6 Rage = 40

A Barbarian 20 is very likely to have an inherent +5 bonus to Str. This is very unlikely for the Forsaker. Also, if you're referring to hit/damage, a LV 20 Barbarian is very likely to have a +9-+10 (total) weapon.

How about HP... nope they are both d12 so the HP are the same....

A Barbarian of this level would almost certaintely have at least a +6 Con belt. That's +60 HP.

How about DR.... lets take a look.... Lv 20 Barbarian has 5 / - a good DR....
A Lv 11 Barbarian Lv 9 Forsaker has DR 2 / - Unless he wears Adamantine Full plate .. and I see no reason for him not to... if he did the DR would be 3 / -
But wait the forsaker gets another DR 8/ by 8th Level and 11/ by 10th level... which unless you have the right weapon will beat the lv 20 Barbarians 5 / - with an 8 / or 11 / btu even with the right weapon the forsaker has at least 2/ - and more than likely 3/ -
a bit on the fence with this one... no clear winner... forsaker better again most of the time... but for the person with jsut the right weapon .. then yes the lv 20 barbarian can under the right settings get a tiny advantage...

I disagree... this is one of the few advantages of the forsaker.

How about Healing... sorry Barbarian healing 20 HP per day... the forsaker heals the same 20 per day but when they fight he will also heal 3 per round for up to 50 points... so healing goes to the forsaker.... what about clerics casting heal spells ??? well... if you have 2 people than a second forsaker attacks the cleric and he is too buisy to help... and besides... clerics can still cast heal spells on a forsaker... the forsaker just saves... and if he wins only heals 1/2 instead of the full amount... still looks like advantage forsaker here....

With more HP, a higher AC, and a better ability to be healed to the barbarian, I don't think that the Forsaker gets much here. Frankly, I'd pump the Forsaker's healing were I to re-design the class.

What about AC??? another tough one... the barbarian you say can get +5 Armor... yeagh but the forsaker gets his Con as a Natural AC bonous... a 18 Con means +4.... so that means that the Forsaker is 1 point down in AC from the Barbarian hugh??? not exactly... you see when the barbarian rages... his AC drops -2.... but the forsaker gets to use the +3 additional Con ability bonous toward his AC... so this drops by -2 btu goes up by +3 for a net of +1 AC in Rage.... sooo... 23 hours a day the Lv 20 Barbarian is +1 better AC than the Forsaker Barbarian... but during a rage when it is most useful... the forsaker is +2 better than the Lv 20 Barbarian.... so... it looks close... I would give it to the forsaker... but it is migty close..

Why wouldn't the Barbarian have a +6 Dex pump item (possible AC increase), a deflection +5 item (+5 AC), and a +3-+5 animated shield? I think that the Barbarian clearly wins this one.

What About SR... The forsaker has SR 19 by Lv 9 and 20 by Lv 10 even if no race is choosen that has SR for it to stack with... that is easily equal to what the barbarina can buy... even if he still has the money after his +5 Full Plate... his +6 Belt and a few others I am sure.....

Yes, the forsaker wins this one. Buying SR through items is rarely worth it. On the other hand, the forsaker's base SR (20) is not particuarly useful against the average caster he'll meet (CL 20). It will help against weaker magical opponents, though.

What about saves.... The forsaker Gets a +2 to start so his Base Fort will always be a point or 2 higher than the barbarian but he also gets Reflex at the same rate... so he will beat the Barbarian in Reflex saves easy..... what about will saves.... they are the same here... expect the slippery mind ability of the forsaker gives him and edge here.... so.... forsaker as a class wins here too... Can the Barbarian buy bonouses .. yes he can.... but those magic items are starting to add up ... +5 Full Plate... +6 Belt... Spell Resistance... now a bonus on Saves... probably something to try to deal with the healling.... also remember the required feats of Great fort.. lightning reflex .. and iron will all give +2 more to saves for the forsaker....

I'd be surprised if the barbarian didn't have at least +5 to saves due to items, as well as higher Con and Dex (again due to items).

In summary, I think you're underestimating the standard wealth of a LV 20 barbarian (roughly 760,000 if I recall correctly). That's easily enough for a +10 (total) weapon, +10 (total) armor, +10 (total) Shield), a +5 Book, and lots of lesser items (a few +6 enhancers, a resistance item, a fly item, etc.)

If you'd like, I can post my analysis along with my take on a 3.5 conversion.

 

[Zimbel]

Comparison: Bar4/For10 vs Bar 14

In theory, this should be the levels when the forsaker is strongest in comparison to a traditional class; after this level, the Forsaker will no longer gain anything additional in exchange for the loss of magic, whereas the straight Barbarian will continue to gain items.

Class Barbarian 14 (rage) HP 124 (166) AC 28 (26) Init 2 Speed 40 Greataxe +23/+18/+13 (+25/+20/+15) Average Damage (including crits) 19.80 (24.6) Comp l-bow +19/+14/+9 Damage (average, including crits) 12.65 Fort +14 (+17) Ref +9 Will +8 (+11) Climb 17 (20) Jump 30 (33) Listen 18 Survival 18 Str 19 (25) Dex 14 Con 14 (20) Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8
SAB: Greater rage 4/day Imp. Uncanny Dodge Trap sense 4 DR 3 Indomitable Will
Feats: WF: Greataxe Dodge Track Blind-Fight Imp. Crit: Greataxe
Equip +5 breastplate +4 greataxe +3 mighty (+4) comp longbow Amulet of natural armor +3 Ring of protection +3, Boots of striding and springing, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Cloak of Protection +3

Class LV4 Barbarian/10 Forsaken (Rage) HP 124 (152) AC 19 (17) Init 2 Speed 30 Greataxe +24/+19/+14 (+26/+21/+16) Damage (average, with crit) 22.20 (25.8) Comp l-bow +17/+12/+7 Damage (average, with crit) 9.35 Fort +15 (+17) Ref +8 Will +11 (+13) Climb 22 (24) Jump 22 (24) Listen 18 Survival 18 Str 27 (31) Dex 14 Con 14 (18) Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8
SAB: Rage 2/day Uncanny Dodge Trap sense 1 DR 11 Slippery Mind Fast Healing 3 (50) SR 20
Feats: Pre-reqs, same Axe feats.
Equip MW breastplate MW mighty (+4) comp l-bow MW silver greataxe MW adamantite greataxe MW Cold Iron Greataxe

Large Advantages: AC -> Barbarian. Ranged Damage -> Barbarian. DR -> Forsaker. Will save -> Forsaker. SR -> Forsaker

(Assumptions for 3.5 conversion: DR is of type "-". Can defeat Magic at LV 1, An opposed alignment (choice) at LV 5, and epic at LV 10.)

And some simulated combats; I appologize about the format- this is abbreviated from a fairly detailed spreadsheet. The creatures are not using optimal tactics, but they are the same (in other words, the Nightwing combat is a simulation of 1 Nightwing vs. 1 For10/Bar 4 AND a simulation of 1 Nightwing vs 1 Bar 14, with the Nightwing using the same tactics in each case.

Note that these are mean combat cases. Effects which are (or are effectively) death effects are treated as max HP damage * the probability of success.

Nightwing
HP 144 Init 8 AC 31 Full 19 Damage (Average, with crits) 26.4, 26.4 Sp Drain Reach 10 Spells Y DR 15, silver & magic CR 14
End of Round5
Barbarian's damage to creature: 85.97% of creature's HP
Creature's damage to Barbarian: 94.62% of Barbarian's HP
Forsaker's damage to creature: 83.26% of creature's HP
Creature's damage to Forsaker: 93.546% of Forsaker's HP

In this encounter (1 Bar or For vs 1 Nightwing), the Barbarian takes a bit more damage, and the Barbarian hurts the creature a bit more (why? because against a flyer, ranged attacks are more significant). Either character will die on round 6, with the creature not dead.

Umber hulk, truly horrid (Not OGL- stats redacted)
End of Round4:
Barbarian's damage to creature: 81.09% of creature's HP
Creature's damage to Barbarian: 147.94% of Barbarian's HP
Forsaker's damage to creature: 85.04% of creature's HP
Creature's damage to Forsaker: 95.63% of Forsaker's HP

In this combat, the creature kills the barbarian in round 3 (confusion is a large component against the barbarian, but not for the forsaker, with both a higher Will save and Slippery mind). Against the Forsaker, the creature dies in round 5, with the Forsaker having roughly 5 HP left.

8 Mohrg
HP 728 (Total) Init 9 AC 23 Full 16 (w/flank) 29/23 (depends on PC) Damage (average, including crit) 11.025 + Para Sp Reach 5 Spells N DR - CR 8
Round4, end:
Barbarian's damage to creatures: 29.29% of creature's HP
Creature's damage to Barbarian: 169.76% of Barbarian's HP
Forsaker's damage to creature: 30.71% of creature's HP
Creature's damage to Forsaker: 104.94% of Forsaker's HP

In this combat, either kills off 1 mohrg in round 2. The barbarian dies in round 3. The Forsaker dies in round 4. The sheer number of Paralyzation saves (off of touch attacks!) here kills either off; the forsaker's living longer is an artifact of paralyzation my using paralyzation as full HP damage in lthis simulation- the Forsaker's higher DR saves him from damage, but paralyzation is actually at the same point for each.

From this analysis, my conclusion is that a forsaker is very slightly stronger than a barbarian at LV 14. Unfortuantely, the bulk of a character's wealth (80.26% of that at LV 20) is gained at later levels. The forsaker's power will sink like a rock in coparision in roughly 2-3 levels.

 

[IamIan]

forsaker value

This has 3 parts and is a bit long so you are warned.
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Part #1

Value of 10 lv forsaker powers

+10 ability bonus 275,000 for 2 manuals of +5

Spell Resistance 90,000

+5 Natural Armor 50,000

heal extra 50 HP per day cure critical spell lv 4 caster lv 7 x 2000 = 56,000 / (5/2)
for 2 charges per day = 22,400

DR best you can buy is mantle of faith 5/evil 76,000

No way I know of to buy slippery mind.

Previously forsaker’s natural weapon +5 by lv 10 was worth 50,000

And that is it 563,400 …. Except forsaker is better in the following ways:
#5> Slippery Mind
#4> forsaker natural weapon is any weapon he uses
#3> forsaker can go above +5 natural armor
#2> +10 can do two +5’s but two +5’s can not do +10 to one ability score

and the #1> advantage of a Forsaker … is
#1> forsaker powers are not lost in anti-magic field nor can they be negated by spell caster.

People must not face beholders or all enemy spell
casters must be dub as rocks… negate the magic any
number of spells will do this an anti-magic field
turns all magic equipment off… other spells are
more permanent but must target specific items.

Now by the time another character class is high
enough level to buy that much the forsaker should
easily have been able to get the best non-magic
weapons and armor.
Which would cost:
16,500 for adamantine full plate
3,010 adamantine battle axe

bringing the value of the class up to : 582,910
plus the top 5
plus by that level what has the forsaker done with
the rest of his money?

my conclusion is that the forsaker is not going to
lay the smack down on every other character but is
a decent character class and is competitive with
what other classes could get in magic.

---------------
Part #2

As for the combat examples:

Vs morhg you seem to have forgotten how low a DC
of 17 for a fort save for the paralyzing is for a
14th level character… by 14th level the forsaker
should have a +12 or +13 to fort saves even with no
con bonus added in…with a con of 14 the fort save
would be like +15 or better and would only fail
the save on a roll of natural 1 or a mear 5% of
the time…. This is if it hits and as you said does
damage past DR …. The barbarian should be about 3
points behind the forsaker meaning he needs to roll
4 or better to save which means failure 20% of the
time…. So the forsaker fails 1 out of 20 the
barbarian fails 1 out of 5.

As you said the umber hulk kills the barbarian but
the forsaker kills the umber hulk and then after
the 5 rounds the forsaker’s fast healing will give
him back 35 or more HP while the barbarian stays
dead.

Now here is one of my own
Anti-magic field spell lv 6 times caster lv 12
times 2,000 use activated = 144,000 GP Item, Now
for 120 minutes 5 times per day a creature /
character has an anti-magic field 10 feet around
them… anybody who gets within 10 feet sees all
their magic stop working poof no save…

So instead of trying to fight people who are
different the group works together as this is
something that is easy to eventually come up
against or a rod of cancellation or negation or
magic user who casts such canceling magic… no
forsaker in the group they are in big trouble as
all magic users just became nearly useless and that
lv 20 Barbarian just lost the +6 Str belt lost his
+6 Con lost his +5 Armor lost his +5 weapon, lost
his save bonuses, etc , etc …. He is now VERY
seriously under powered compared to his foe and for
not much compared to the cost of some of his
equipment... the forsaker on the other hand has
lost nothing and stays just as strong… up to lv 15
or 16 forsakers have outright benefits that
overcome the loss of magic… higher levels 17+ can
yes get stuff equal or possibly even better
depending on how generous the DM is… but by lv 15+
the likely hood of running into anti-magic of one
type or another gets higher and higher… allot of
creatures in the CR 15+ range have the use of magic
canceling magic… and when not fighting against
things that cancel magic the forsaker is less of a
target for thieves as his stuff is worth less… and
when not dealing with anti-magic, or thieves the
forsaker is still a good fighter who if played well
should give the group some options instead of being
dependant on magic… it should be viewed as a viable
class … but just as magic user’s shouldn’t be
casting fire balls at their own group or using
domination and mind controlling magic on other
members of the party … or just as paladins or good
clerics shouldn’t give away other party member
stuff for charities… or trying to convert the druid
from his sinful ways… or rogues shouldn’t steal
from party members… like any character in a group
they have to be played with at least a little
consideration and thought… a rogue makes a poor
head to head fighter and can’t cast magic… the
fighter and barbarian have poor skills still no
spell casting and but are much better in a head to
head fight… sorcer / wizard / are better spell
caster’s but not head to head or skills… the rest
make up middle ground compromises with some of this
and some of that… every class has limits and
strengths…. The forsaker is no different.

-------------------
Part# 3
My 2 bits on 3.5 version of Forsaker

A good conversion to 3.5 would be DR/- and devide
the amount by 2 so 5/- at lv 10 this is as
comparable to what barbarians and dwarven defenders
get and should be fair.

In 3.5 the forsaker’s fast heal should not have a
daily limit.

In 3.5 the forsaker’s natural weapon should be
/magic instead of +1 and then one of their
alignment descriptors like law or chaos at +3 and
the other alignment descriptor at +5 like good or
evil… forsakers can still use adamantine as a
non-magic weapon and this would allow the class to
still fit in the new DR rules.

Forsaker’s should have an extraordinary ability
that allows them to sense magic or to figure out if
an item is magic no further information like type
of magic etc… is needed nor does it need to be long
ranged.

At Epic Levels the forsaker should start generating
his own Anti-Magic field that grows in size and
power as he advances in epic levels.

My 2 bits…