D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Forsaker

[IamIan]

had a idea

As Level goes up normally the character's wealth eventually becomes more useful than the forsaker's abilities... yes his abilities are still nice but at a sertain point equal abilities can be bought and not have to give up magic....

Previously I think we figured this point to be around lv 14 or so....

so here is my thought...

how comparable is a forsaker who takes a vow of poverty?

Forsaker class continues to give bonouses as does the vow of poverty... this guys has even less equipment than the did as just a forsaker... but that feat should work well on a forsaker and really helps him at higher levels....

just a thought I was having about forsakers... Any thoughts???

my 2 bits

 

[IamIan]

1 more thing

forgot to include this before but was figureing a good class for the vow of poverty forsaker before and after forsaker class would be would be monk and then monk pretige class.

my 2 bits

 

[Three_Haligonians]

forgot to include this before but was figureing a good class for the vow of poverty forsaker before and after forsaker class would be would be monk and then monk pretige class.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this before in another Forsaker thread but Monks gain spell like abilities which, if also a Forsaker, they would not be allowed to use. Of course, you could probably make the arguement that the benefits a forsaker monk would gain outweigh the loss of a few spell-like abilities.

Here is something else to consider:

A non-forsaker can gain up to a +16 to one of his ability modifiers by the time he reaches 20th level - +6 enhancement (from the proper magic item), +5 inherent (from the proper magic tome or manual) and +5 that comes from every 4 levels (4, 8, 12, 16, and 20). All his other abilities can be increased by +11 - again +6 enhancement (from the proper magic item), +5 inherent (from the proper magic tome or manual)
(It is true that this would be -very- costly and probably out of the price range of a 20th level character and is, ultimately, up to the DM

The forsaker however, can only gain up to +15 in one ability score - +5 that comes from gaining levels and +10 for the ten levels in forsaker (even then you have to obey the spirit of the this forsaker ability, not the RAW which state every forsaker level gives a +1 inherent bonus and inherent bonuses don't stack with each other).

I'm inclined to think that the 3.5 forsaker should have a different mechanic than just "+1 to an ability every level" because it puts them woefully behind. Perhaps it should be something like every four levels all the forsaker's abilites increase by one, or that they get more than one point to allocate to a given ability, or for all abilities.

Thoughts?

J from Three Haligonians

 

[Jack Simth]

forgot to include this before but was figureing a good class for the vow of poverty forsaker before and after forsaker class would be would be monk and then monk pretige class.

my 2 bits

I think there's a conceptual problem in stacking Forsaker and Vow of Poverty - the Forsaker destroys magic items, the Vow of Poverty character donates them for sale or whatever to help the needy.

Also a balance issue - you're trying to count your giving up of things twice....

 

[Mistwell]

I think VoP is best used as a analogous sample to draw from in making a new Forsaker class. It shows what kinds of powers are likely balanced in return for giving up material goods in a 3.5 game.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

I think VoP is best used as a analogous sample to draw from in making a new Forsaker class. It shows what kinds of powers are likely balanced in return for giving up material goods in a 3.5 game.

That is a really good point. So good in fact that I am going to go and revise my 3.5 forsaker right now!

Thanks!

J from Three Haligonians

 

[IamIan]

Yes... When you get enough money you can buy the bonouses that the forsaker gets from the forsaker class as Three_Haligonians pointed out.... you can buy +5 Book +6 Item for +11 compaired to the +10 of the forsaker ... either gets the +5 from Levels by 20th.... Forsaker doesn't go down in Anti-Magic Field but the Lv 20 can get high attribute and other magic stuff...

But....

Vow of Poverty give up to +8 to one Ability +6 to 2nd +4 to 3rd +2 to 4th
stacked with +10 from Forsaker and +5 from Levels...
up to +23 to one attribute +6 to 2nd +4 to 3rd and +2 to 4th

Money Can't buy those kind of attributes...

Pus the monk benefits most from High attributes as he puts Wis & Dex into AC plus the AC from Forsaker Con and most of the AC from VoP.... this will be a very wiked AC...

Plus the VoP give AC bonuses, Save Bonuses, Sustenance, no need to breath, Energy Resistance, DR that doesn't depend on Destruction of Magic, Regeneration, True Seeing.... and best of all they are Su not Sp abilities so the forsaker doesn't have to give them up....

--------------

I agree with Mistwell that this combination allows for a very competative character to the normal material wealth build... with some benifits beyond those of material wealth...

-------------

I think I have found my next character .... Nothing but the clothes on his back... but toe to toe as good as magic using rich Warrior class.... only possible benefit the magic useing warrior has is he doesn't have to resist and fight against buffs from clerics and druids.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Money Can't buy those kind of attributes...

Actually, with a +6 enhancement bonus and a +5 inherent bonus to all six abilities, money can buy a total of +66, which is almost twice the Forsaker/VoP can get.

But of course, such a build gets plenty of other benefits and what character has all six abilities maxed out magically anyway so it's probably not that bad.

J from Three Haligonians

 

[IamIan]

sorry should have been more clear... was refering to the one attribute dump is higher than money can go... but you are right better attributes can be bought by lv 20 with magic and standard wealth.... but with the other bonuses... I would have to put tihs Forsaker build on par with the money / magic character.... who could buy as much as +55 attributes with standard wealth and as much as +66 from unlimited money... compared to about +30 from Forsaker and VoP....

Normally I think the forsaker is an interesting class but this puts it much more competitive with the norm... in raw power and abilities.

 

[DrNilesCrane]

I always thought of the Forsaker as the B.A. Barakus of D&D mysef:
Ftr: "Damn, we gotta get to the other continent."
Wiz: "Well there's only one way to do that..."
Forsaker: "No way, uh-uh, there's no way I'm gonna let you-" *THWAP* *THUD*
Rogue: *puts sap down* "There's no way he's gonna fall for the ol' random-falling-brick-from-the-sky story again..."
Wiz: "You'd be surprised..."

One of my players went the Forsaker/Monk route and that was the situation we encountered a couple of times. Once the character was told where the boundary of a teleportation circle was, but the wizard lied (the real boundary was further out). Another time the character was turned to stone (against his will) so that the party could teleport him. The character worked out well (we went into low epic levels) in comparison to the rest of the party: his backstory was that he gained his abilities after being experimented on by an arcanist while imprisoned, so the Forsaker outlook worked well for the character.

My players were also very understanding: the Forsaker's player knew he was limiting himself and was willing to play an NPC if the party ended up having to leave him behind. The other players were willing to put up with that difficulty as well, so it worked out, although I can see it being a problem in some groups and/or in some adventures.

Gaining some of the Monk abilities (such as the Dimension Door ability) pushed credibility a bit and we ended up tweaking damage reduction for 3.5 (just made it a flat rate vs. everything - it gave the character a bit of a needed power boost, since he couldn't accept magical healing), but overall the character worked mechanically and he was on par with other characters of his level. I didn't allow the Vow of Poverty & it really didn't fit the character concept.

Just my 2 cents...