[3.5] How could a druid "almost replace a sorcerer?"

[Hardhead]

OK, Andy said that the new Druid could "almost replace a Sorcerer or Wizard." Now, I know we don't have all the info yet, but we most of it, and all I can say is: Whaaaaaaa?

Thanks to Olgar, we've seen the new Druid spell list. It is:

Spell List:
0-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS (Orisons): Create Water ; Cure Minor Wounds ; Detect Magic ; Detect Poison ; Flare ; Guidance ; Know Direction ; Light; Mending ; Purify Food and Drink ; Read Magic ; Resistance ; Virtue

1st-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS: Calm Animals ; Charm Animal ; Cure Light Wounds ; Detect Animals or Plants ; Detect Snares and Pits ; Endure Elements ; Entangle ; Faerie Fire ; Goodberry
Hide from Animals ; Jump; Longstrider ; Magic Fang ; Magic Stone ; Obscuring Mist ; Pass without Trace ; Produce Flame; Shillelagh ; Speak with Animals; Summon Nature's Ally I

2nd-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS: Animal Messenger ; Animal Trance ; Barkskin ; Bear's Endurance; Bull's Strength; Cat's Grace; Chill Metal ; Delay Poison ; Fire Trap . ; Flame Blade ; Flaming Sphere ; Fog Cloud; Gust of Wind ; Heat Metal ; Hold Animal ; Owl's Wisdom; Reduce Animal; Resist Energy; Restoration, Lesser; Soften Earth and Stone ; Spider Climb; Summon Nature's Ally II ; Summon Swarm ; Tree Shape ; Warp Wood ; Wood Shape

3rd-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS: ; Call Lightning ; Contagion ; Cure Moderate Wounds ; Daylight ; Diminish Plants ; Dominate Animal ; Magic Fang, Greater ; Meld into Stone ; Neutralize Poison ; Plant Growth ; Poison ; Protection from Elements ; Quench ; Remove Disease ; Sleet Storm; Snare ; Speak with Plants ; Spike Growth ; Stone Shape ; Summon Nature's Ally III ; Water Breathing ; Wind Wall

4th-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS: Air Walk; Antiplant Shell ; Blight; Command Plants ; Control Water; Cure Serious Wounds ; Dispel Magic ; Flame Strike ; Freedom of Movement ; Giant Vermin ; Ice Storm ; Reincarnate ; Repel Vermin ; Rusting Grasp ; Scrying ; Spike Stones ; Summon Nature's Ally IV

5th-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS: Animal Growth ; Atonement ; Awaken ; Baleful Polymorph; Call Lightning Storm; Commune with Nature ; Control Winds ; Cure Critical Wounds ; Death Ward ; Hallow ; Insect Plague ; Stoneskin; Summon Nature's Ally V ; Transmute Mud to Rock ; Transmute Rock to Mud ; Tree Stride ; Unhallow ; Wall of Fire ; Wall of Thorns

6th-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS: Antilife Shell ; Bear's Endurance, Mass; Bull's Strength, Mass; Cat's Grace, Mass; Cure Light Wounds, Mass; Dispel Magic, Greater; Find the Path ; Fire Seeds ; Ironwood ; Liveoak ; Move Earth; Owl's Wisdom, Mass; Repel Wood; Spellstaff ; Stone Tell ; Summon Nature's Ally VI ; Transport via Plants ; Wall of Stone

7th-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS: Animate Plants; Changestaff ; Control Weather
Creeping Doom ; Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass; Fire Storm ; Heal ; Scrying, Greater; Summon Nature's Ally VII ; Sunbeam ; Transmute Metal to Wood ; True Seeing ; Wind Walk

8th-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS: Animal Shapes ; Control Plants ; Cure Serious Wounds, Mass; Earthquake; Finger of Death ; Repel Metal or Stone ; Reverse Gravity ; Summon Nature's Ally VIII ; Sunburst; Whirlwind ; Word of Recall

9th-LEVEL DRUID SPELLS: Antipathy ; Cure Critical Wounds, Mass ; Elemental Swarm ; Foresight ; Regenerate; Shambler ; Shapechange ; Storm of Vengeance ; Summon Nature's Ally IX ; Sympathy

Now, it seems they've picked up a few treaks. Produce Flame is now 1st level instead of 2nd, and is a very respectable spell at that level. Flaming Sphere will continue to be a solid 2nd level spell, but just as in 3.0, they seem to trail off at higher levels.

For 3rd level, when Sorcerers and Wizards are getting Fireball, Druids get... Call Lightening (which now deals 3d6 damage, and you can spend a standard action to deal 3d6 more damage to one person every round, reflex for half). Way less damage than fireball, especially at higher levels, and only hits one person, not an area. Poison is a decent spell, but doesn't affect undead or constructs, and is still only a single-target effect with a "negates" style save and requires a melee touch attack.

At 4th spell level, Ice Storm has thankfully been lowered (it was 5th level for Druids), but wasn't even a very good choice for Wizards/Sorcs, so it's not that much to write home about. Blight may or may not be good - I've never heard of it. Spike Stones was a very bad 3.0 spell.

So, in summary, I don't see that much that makes the Druid almost-Sorcerer level. They're definitly better, from a nuke perspective, but not anywhere near Arcane caster level. Am I missing something? Or are many of these spells being buffed in 3.5?

 

[LordAO]

I don't understand why anyone should "replace" a Sorcerer or Wizard. That's stupid. If Druids are just as good as they are, then how can they justify all of the disadvanatages Wizards and Sorcerers have?

 

[Numion]

At 4th spell level, Ice Storm has thankfully been lowered (it was 5th level for Druids), but wasn't even a very good choice for Wizards/Sorcs, so it's not that much to write home about. Blight may or may not be good - I've never heard of it. Spike Stones was a very bad 3.0 spell.

You forgot the best evocation in 3.0e : Flame Strike. At higher levels the half-divine damage is big news, when every monster and his daddy has elemental resistance / protection.

I don't think that andy meant them to replace sorcs / wizzies as a class, but rather to be able to fill the vacancy of groups main spellcaster, IMHO.

 

[Eldorian]

They don't mean the Druid is as good as the sorc/wiz, just that a Druid, with the proper spells memorized, could fill in much of the role that a sorcerer or wizard plays in the average party. As you can see, the druid has mass damage spells, combat utility, summoning spells, shapechanging abilities, and some transport utility. Wiz/sorc have better spells in many of these catagories, and some roles that druids can't fill, such as magic item indetification, and knowledge type skills, and much utility.

As for the mass damage, which it seems is what you think wizards and sorcerers are good for, you forgot Flame Strike, fire seeds, firestorm, sunburst and storm of vengence. Flame strike, firestorm, and storm of vengence in particular are very nice spells for the levels.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Hardhead]

You forgot the best evocation in 3.0e : Flame Strike. At higher levels the half-divine damage is big news, when every monster and his daddy has elemental resistance / protection.

You're right, I *did* forget it.

Flame Strike *is* a really good spell, even with a small 10' radius.

I don't think that andy meant them to replace sorcs / wizzies as a class, but rather to be able to fill the vacancy of groups main spellcaster, IMHO.

Yeah, that's what he meant, I'm sure. But that's what I meant as well, and I just don't think Druids can yet replace Wizards/Sorcs. Fire Storm is still one of their best nukes, and it wasn't even changed from 3.0 to 3.5

 

[I'm A Banana]

Eh...3.0 Druids were still pretty much 'clerics with spellcasting TEETH!', probably in part to compensate for their more limited combat ability (weaker weapons and lesser armor).

I think the gauge is pretty accurate. He did say 'almost,' after all, and while 3d6 to one target may not be as good as, say, 6d6 to a bunch, doesn't Call Lightning give you a lot more bolts? And then they have staying power that a Wiz/Sorc doesn't have. So if you treat one like a Wiz/Sorc would be treated in the party (e.g.: protect them, guard them, and expect them to lob bombs from a distance) it shant be too shabby in fullfilling that role. And then when they're out of boom (which is going to be sooner than a Wiz/Sorc), they can still go out and mix it up in physical combat.

They're not purely equal in a damaging spells sense, but what they lack there they make up for with staying power. In the long run, a druid could easily be as advantageous to a party, damage-wise, as a Sorcerer/Wizard could be.

 

[Destil]

At 4th spell level, Ice Storm has thankfully been lowered (it was 5th level for Druids), but wasn't even a very good choice for Wizards/Sorcs, so it's not that much to write home about. Blight may or may not be good - I've never heard of it. Spike Stones was a very bad 3.0 spell.

Ice Storm is a great spell.... at level 7. It's roughly 75% of a 7th level fireball with no save, which is just about right. The is the damage dosn't scale. That's the reason you'll never see a sorcerer take it, and given spellbook costs it's fairly rare for wizards, too. If I were playing a 7th level druid I'd prepair a few of these every day I was expecting serious combat myself... but fewer at 8th level and don't even think about it at 9th+. If the damage only scaled just a little (up to say 3d6 cold & 4d6 bludgeoning at 11th or so) it would be worthwhile much longer.

Druids also have some really amazing specialized spells. Quench. Rusting Grasp. Warp Wood. Sunbeam/burst. All of these can turn a hard fight into a cakewalk faster than a good turning check.

What about Fire Seeds. Dosn't that break the damage caps in 3E? It may be a single target spell, but you could dish out some serious hurting with it. Anyone know if this has changed in the revision?

I think creeping doom has been changed, though I havn't seen how yet, myself. But that could still be a rather nice spell when used at the right time.

 

[DM_Matt]

Re: Re: [3.5] How could a druid "almost replace a sorcerer?"

If the damage only scaled just a little (up to say 3d6 cold & 4d6 bludgeoning at 11th or so) it would be worthwhile much longer.

Its called Empower Spell

Although it does of course make it a sixth-level spell, but its nifty for a high-level druid.

BTW, its improved in 3.5...it lasts a whole round and gives those within it a -4 to listen checks and half movement.

Also, I noticed that they have Baleful Polymorph, which is a great offensive spell, too.

 

[Steverooo]

Druidic Tactics

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56015

 

[Plane Sailing]

Re: Re: Re: [3.5] How could a druid "almost replace a sorcerer?"

BTW, its improved in 3.5...it lasts a whole round and gives those within it a -4 to listen checks and half movement.

THus it can be extended for some extra oomph.

It does rather stand out though as one of the few spells which doesn't scale with level in one way or another. I might make a house rule for it, that the ice storm lasts for 1r/3 caster levels, giving it some value in area-denial.