D&D 3.x [3.5] Incorporeality now gives Crit immunity!!

LokiDR · Aug 11, 2003

It doesn't seem to be limited enough.

Spatula · Aug 11, 2003

James McMurray said:
Ghostform may seem like a better version of Ethereal Jaunt, but another benefit apart from the invisibility is that Ethereal Jaunt keeps you from getting whacked on by Ghost Touch weaponry.

Which is oh so common...

Another downside of Ethereal Jaunt vs Ghost Form, though, is that with EJ the caster is fully subject to the attacks of ethereal creatures and can be blocked by ethereal objects.

Anyway, that's why I said Ghostform should be 7th (which is the same level as EJ) or 8th. With the crit/sneak attack immunity, I'd say it should definitely be 8th.

Pax · Aug 11, 2003

Spatula said:
Which is oh so common... Another downside of Ethereal Jaunt vs Ghost Form, though, is that with EJ the caster is fully subject to the attacks of ethereal creatures and can be blocked by ethereal objects.

Actually, Ghostform puts you wholly on the Ethereal, too. So ethereal creatures can whack you but good (and you're not incorporeal to THEM, so THEY can crit you!). Ethereal obstacles give you problems. And so on.

Ghostform makes you fully ethereal and incorporeal on the material plane, exactly like a ghost. Honestly, it's got a lot of vulnerability problems.

It's EJ, with the ability to attack the material plane and be attacked FROM the material plane. Any commoner swinging a +1 sharpened stick (go, Magic Weapon spell!), could get lucky and do some damage to you, while in Ghostform. As could any lucky-with-dice 1st level rogue with a wand of magic missile.

Spatula · Aug 11, 2003

Pax said:
Actually, Ghostform puts you wholly on the Ethereal, too. So ethereal creatures can whack you but good (and you're not incorporeal to THEM, so THEY can crit you!). Ethereal obstacles give you problems. And so on.

My apologies, I didn't have T&B in front of me and didn't recall that from the spell description.

Ghostform makes you fully ethereal and incorporeal on the material plane, exactly like a ghost. Honestly, it's got a lot of vulnerability problems.

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Aside from the whole incorporeal thing - 100% immunity to non-magical effects, 50% immunity to magical non-force and non-ghost touch effects, and now 100% immunity to sneak attacks and critical hits. The ability to walk on air and to walk through walls reduces the caster's vulnerability further.

Jeremy · Aug 12, 2003

Pax said:
Actually, you can get that miss chance with Blink (3d level) and Improved Blink (5th level, from UE). Ghostform was reasonable at a strong 5th level spell. It MIGHT have been okay at 6th ... as a somewhat weak 6th level spell.

With the crit-immunity, I do believe 7th level is reasonable (it'd be slightly strong there, but, I don't really think it's good enough to peg as 8th level).

But both of those spells apply a chance for your attacks to fail as well. Ghostform has no such penalty.

And that's not counting the capability to drift through objects, pop in and out of walls and/or the ground, fly over obstacles or out of reach, and gain a possible spellcasting stat to your armor class. This spell can make a sorcerer into the ultimate mobile firing platform.

Imagine the horror of a shielded, mage armor'd, extremely high charisma sorcerer who has better AC than the warrior, better mobility than the rogue, and a better chance to avoid spells (50% miss chance + normal saving throw) than the monk. He can float around casting spells, hiding in walls when the heat is on, they are soundless unless they want to make sound, the have no physical bodies to trigger blindsight or tremorscense, they have no scent, etc. all with no impact to his offensive capabilities save the ability to make magical touch attacks.

It was the premier defensive spell for sorcerers in my world until we bumped it up. That was before it granted greater fortification to prevent critical hits, sneak attack damage, wounding damage, crippling strike, stunning attacks, and all the other things critical immunity protects a creature from.

Additionally, there is a huge difference between Etheral and Incorporeal. And for a spellcaster (which you are if you're casting Ghostform presumably), Incorporeal is better in every instance.

See this excellent analysis by Sean K. Reynolds. The Difference between Incorporeal and Ethereal

Our original fix was to swap etherealness with ghostform in levels and lower ethereal jaunt. Now that ghostform is even more powerful I'm not sure what we are going to with it and arcana form.

Kae'Yoss · Aug 12, 2003

Pax said:
Um. Telthors are USUALLY bound to the land, but a Durthan's Telthor Companions are bound to the Durthan.

Didn't know about the Durthan (but I don't think a spellcaster will want a companion that has an anitmagic field aroudn itself...).

And it's just the quickest example of an incorporeal creature which is not also undead.

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While this is true, I was answering Pielorinho, who thught that the Telthor was to powerful.

I can think of only one other incorporeal creature that isn't undead: The Crossroads Guardian (from Magic of Faerûn). And they are also limited (must stay within 50 ft of the crossroads they protect)

Also note, it might not be ONE HILL, but could be an entire mountain range, or a whole forest. The size of a telthor's home region is left undefined; certainly less than all of rashemen, but equally certainly more than ONE hill. A couple hills and the valley between 'em, seems more reasonable to me.

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I was just demonstrating. They aren't tied to a pole, but they are ultimately restricted in their movement. You can't take a Telthor and conquer Thay, Aglarond and Mulhorand with it.

IanB · Aug 12, 2003

I don't think so. 3.0 didn't specify ANY of the three. And simple immunity to critical hits would cover Sneak Attack, but they specify sneak attack seperately.

I think a more likely explanation is that they added this to incorporeality before they decided to unbind the ranger damage from "location based damage"...