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D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Is every Magic Change Downward?

Li Shenron

Legend
tieranwyl said:
Yep. Thank the power gamers with prestige classes. Check out Dragon 309. The feat Spell Focus gets nerfed because it is too powerful with a prestige class. I thought prestige classes were for NPC's anyway. So the only way to fix the problem is a revision? Why not fix the power gamer instead?

I agree with you. I never had problems with SF in one school, not even with GSF if I have to be honest. DCs break up the sky with PrCl abilities especially when you allow players to take more PrCl. To change a core rule in order to fix a problematic optional rule would be very funny if it wasn't sad instead.

If Collins really said that they were seriously concerned with the power of GSF, he's not being very serious. Why did they write GSF in the first place if there was no need? To make an accessory book more attractive for powergamers? :rolleyes: Why not changing GSF with an errata? Seems like they are mostly concerned about not changing pulished products which they can't re-published in revised version. But let's remember that 3e core was much more playtested than the accessory books, and it's them which have proven the most material to be imperfect, but unfortunately they are too expensive to revise.
 

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rushlight

Roll for Initiative!
Magic NEEDED to be reduced.

Or melee needed to be increased. I've been running a continous campaign since 2nd ed, through Skills and Powers, into 3e, and soon into 3.5.

One thing I've noticed in 3e is that an average mage will deal 2 or 3 times more damage out than an average meleer can, especially once you've gone above level 10 or so.

Sure, it's possible to really sit and tweak and fiddle and make a melee guy who can deal out decent damage under ideal conditions, but a mage can plop down equal amounts under average conditions. I'll illustrate further down.

Suffice it to say, as a DM I continually find myself balancing encounters based on the magic users. Whatever monster I'm throwing out needs to have the chance to survive more than a single round - otherwise what's the point? It seems to me the challenge of the game, the heart of combat, is the process whereby the players are CHALLENGED, and either rise up and defeat that challenge, or fail, regroup and learn something. If every combat is a single round affair, then just save yourselves some time, and mark down the XP without bothering to roll the dice. Hell, just go ahead, make yourself 20th level, declare you "won" D&D, and move on.

Here's something to think about:

Let's assume that there are two fights going on, each with an identical monster. I'll choose an average monster, a Fire Giant, which is a CR 10, common for a party of the level we're talking about. (Now I know that there are certain times when a mage just won't do, or a meleer just can't cut it, but we're talking about the usual, run-of-the-mill encounter here). We've got a 10th level fighter, and a 10th level mage, and we'll give each 5 rounds to deal damage.

Fighter: Let's assume that the fighter has a STR of 20 (+5) and wields a 2-handed +5 Shocking Greatsword. The Fire Giant has an AC of 21, so let's give our fighter Weapon focus/Spec, and Improved Crit (now 17-20, x2). So, that gives our fighter a +21/+16 to hit. Over 5 rounds, he'll get 5 chances at +21 (where there's a 5% chance to miss, by rolling a 1), and 5 chances at +16 (where there's a 20% chance to miss, by rolling a 4 or less). We'll assume that all 5 of the +21 attacks hit, and 4 of the +16 ones hit, given that 20% miss chance. So that's a total of 9 hits. Each of those 9 hits has a 20% chance to threaten a crit, so there's 2 crits, and we'll assume that he confirms those. So we have 7 regular hits, and 2 crits.

The first 7 hits do 2d6 (the greatsword), plus the 2-hand str bonus (+5 x 1.5 = 8, rounded up), along with the magic bonus (+5), and the Weapon Spec bonus (+2), and finally 1d6 for the Shocking. That's 3d6+15 total, for an average of 25 points each, or 175 total.

The last 2 crits do 25 points each as usual, plus another 2d6+15 each, for an additional 22 points. That's 47 points each, or 94 total.

Over all, that's 269 points of damage.


Mage: Now, our mage isn't all that good. He's got an INT of 15 (+2), the minimum needed to cast 5th level spells. He's got 3 feats: Heighten, Empower, Maximize, and Energy Substitution. He's got his combat spells memorized: 1st: Magic Missle x5, 2nd: Melf's Acid x5, 3rd: Haste, Fireball (as a Sonic spell) x2, 4th: Fireball (Heightned, as a Sonic spell) x3, 5th: Quickened Magic Missle x2.

Our mage isn't as good at rolling as the fighter, he rolls average.
Round one: Mage casts Haste, followed by a Melf's.
Round two: Melf's, followed by Melf's (haste) followed by Quickened Missile.
Round three: Fireball, Fireball, Quickened Missile.
Round four: Heightened Fireball, H: Fireball
Round five: H: Fireball, Magic Missile

So, let's see how much damage we did. We'll start with the Magic Missiles, since those give no save. Each one gives 5d4+5, or 17 points each, 3 times, for a total of 51. Next we'll do those Melf's Acids, and they get no saves either. Each does 2d4, plus another 2d4 every round for 4 rounds. That's 3 Melfs, for 6d4, plus 4 extra rounds for the first one, and 3 extra rounds for the second and third, for a total of 20d4 extra, or 26d4 total. That's a total of 65. Next there were 2 fireballs, which give a reflex save. Our DC is 15, but the giant just has a reflex save of +4, so there's a 45% chance of the giant making his save. We'll round that up to 50%, so he saves one and fails the other. That's 10d6, plus 5d6, or 53. Next are 3 more fireballs, heightened to 4th level. That reduces his change to save even more, so on average he'll save one and fail the others. That's another 25d6 for a total of 88 points of damage. The grand total of damage done is 204.


So the fighter did 65 points of damage more, but he did so with a much higher stat, and expensive magic weapons. Give that mage an equal value in magic items and stats (like a rod of maximization, or the like), and he'll quickly surpass the fighter. Rise up a few levels, and damage becomes irrelevant, since the mage can then just kill outright. Give him some useful feats that increase his DCs, and a better stat, and he'll get more of those spells through. Powergame him out by mixing in Prestige Classes, and it gets even more insane. It's difficult to add much more to a fighter.

Surely this wasn't a very accurate representation of random events, but I believe that it's close. If it at least gives you something to think about, that's good. Ask your DM (or yourself if you DM) how many times the monster dies to the mages and clerics before the fighters can get in more than a few hits, given they usually have to get in position first. Not to mention that those magic types have a whole host of utility spells, and protection spells. I don't really have a problem with many of the changes proposed.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
Re: Magic NEEDED to be reduced.

rushlight said:
So the fighter did 65 points of damage more, but he did so with a much higher stat, and expensive magic weapons. Give that mage an equal value in magic items and stats (like a rod of maximization, or the like), and he'll quickly surpass the fighter.

The fighter could probably do the same or better with less expensive magic items and weaker stats--for instance 16 str +2 and a +4 belt of strength, boots of Speed, and a +3 shock greatsword. (Although he might have to go for a +2 shock greatsword if he wants a good cloak of resistance and decent armor).

The wizard can get better too but I don't think that the wizard will dramatically outpace the fighter even if equal stats and gp values are used; the results your comparison seems to pretty roughly correspond to my experience: high level fighters dish out more damage to single targets than high level wizards can even if they blow every spell they've got at 2.5 spells per round. It's a more representative comparison than you give it credit for being.

Rise up a few levels, and damage becomes irrelevant, since the mage can then just kill outright. Give him some useful feats that increase his DCs, and a better stat, and he'll get more of those spells through. Powergame him out by mixing in Prestige Classes, and it gets even more insane. It's difficult to add much more to a fighter.

I'll admit that you probably can powergame wizards more than fighters--at least if you allow FRCS feats and prestige classes in your game, but I think you can power game fighters quite effectively too. Your fighter, for instance, could have dealt a good deal more damage if he'd mixed in two levels of barbarian (you could take the extra rage feat too if you want to be able to do it more than once per day). He'd get uncanny dodge too. Levels of Holy Liberator would help a lot on the defensive side. Etc. Etc. There are quite a few powerful fighter prestige classes out there (Weapon Master, Tribal Protector, Frenzied Beserker, Holy Liberator, Templar, Devoted Defender, Order of the Bow Initiate, Peerless Archer (hey if Archmage is in, Peerless Archer should be), etc).

Ask your DM (or yourself if you DM) how many times the monster dies to the mages and clerics before the fighters can get in more than a few hits, given they usually have to get in position first.

My experience is quite different. In the last 7 or 8 games I've played, the enemies have died to the fighters (sometimes the fighter/mage is a part of this) before the cleric got a chance to do much of anything. The last two mods I played, the cleric's player was complaining that everything was dead by the time his initiative came up. Granted we've never had a well-constructed blaster mage in the group but the fighter looked anything except weak.

(Full disclosure: these were Living Greyhawk games, APL 10; the consistent party members were a Bbn 1/Rog 2/Ftr 4/Rgr 1/Temple Raider 2, a Ftr 2/Wiz 6/Spellsword 2 (melee focussed; Wiz 7 in the last game), and a Clr 10 (11 in the last game); some of the following characters were always present in the games but none were there for all of them: Ftr 4/Wiz 2/Rgr 1/Bbn 1 (archer), Rgr 5/Ftr 2/Deepwood Sniper 2, Ftr 2/Wiz 6 (fighter levels are for point blank and precise shot which he uses with rays), Rog 1/Wiz 8 with a Drd 5 cohort, Rog 1/Clr 7 (archer))


I don't see how you can reconcile this:

Not to mention that those magic types have a whole host of utility spells, and protection spells.

and this:

Round one: Mage casts Haste, followed by a Melf's.
Round two: Melf's, followed by Melf's (haste) followed by Quickened Missile.
Round three: Fireball, Fireball, Quickened Missile.
Round four: Heightened Fireball, H: Fireball
Round five: H: Fireball, Magic Missile

go together. All told, I count 2 5th level spells, 3 4th level spells, 3 3rd level spells, 3 2nd level spells and a 1st level spell in the space of those 5 rounds. Now, a 10th level wizard (assuming 20 int) only has a progression of 4/4/4/3/3/2--4+1/6+1/5+1/4+1/4+1/3+1 after bonusses if he's a specialist. So the wizard in question now has:
5 0-level spells, 6 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, 2 3rd level spells, 1 fourth level spell, and 2 5th level spells left. Sure it's an impressive amount of damage but if he's got much in the way of those utility and defensive spells you were talking about, he'd better have sunk most of his cash into wands if he wants to contribute something significant on offense again that day.

Really, if a wizard can blow that many of his spells in a single encounter, they darn well ought to make a significant difference.
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
One tiny improvement, but one I'm glad to see, is that Eschew Material Components is now a General feat, and not a Metamagic feat. That means the Bard and Sorcerer can stop using material components without having to use a full-round action to cast their spells.
 

zorlag

First Post
-

"Why is the wizard using fireball on a Fire giant?"

Maybe he has a Wisdom of 3... :)

Anyway, wizard would do much better with energy substitution feat (maybe cold/acid or sonic) and since he's 10th level, Cone of Cold might have been nice too.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Re: -

"Why is the wizard using fireball on a Fire giant?"

Maybe he has a Wisdom of 3... :)

Anyway, wizard would do much better with energy substitution feat (maybe cold/acid or sonic) and since he's 10th level, Cone of Cold might have been nice too.

Uh, if you read it again, they were Sonic-substituted fireballs...

-Hyp.
 

gariig

First Post
The most balancing factor for a mage is multiple encounters a day. If your mage sees a lone kobold and launches every prepared spell at them, you better make sure there is another encounter around the corner. If you allow mages to rest whenever they feel like, then yes the mage is really overpowered.

A mage is trump card, they deal lots of damage at one time and then they are played out. A fighter is in it for the long haul, they will consistently do more average damage over time. That's just the way D&D is.

Gariig
 

Darklone

Registered User
3rd edition problem:

Constitution. Every monster and player has much more hitpoints, but the damage spells stayed the same.

It's just not worth it to try to kill opponents with damage spells if you can immobilize or incapacitate them with a single flick of the wrist.

D&D always was one of the games (I played mainly) that had a lot of damage blasting mages in it. Love it.

Other game systems often had ridiculous spells where the spellcaster wasted his whole spells/day or mana pool to eventually kill one opponent of similar level. D&D was better IMHO. 3rd edition got worse in that respect.

They should have raised the damage output of the damage spells and tone down the insta kill spells.
 

Bauglir

First Post
Sorcerers and bards are rumoured to be able to swap out old spells on even levels, Neverwinter Nights style. Also wizard scribing costs have been halved.

While I agree with the changes to Heal/Harm/Disintegrate and partially agree with the change to Haste (will get back to that) I feel that casters have been hit a little too hard in 3.5e.

As posts on this thread have demonstrated, even with 3.0 haste a wizard must volley off their entire spell repertoire for the day just to break even with the fighter. Can you really blame them for turning to save or die spells as the only viable combat options? Particularly with the removal of haste from the equation, the 'blaster mage' just isn't up to scratch as a concept.

WotC have looked at the overuse of save or die spells, and decided to weaken them through SF reduction (and through the already existing SR and high saves of monsters) when the problem was never that save or dies were overpowered as a combat option; (at least until all the DC twinks are added in - a 'basic' wizard will have a fairly low chance to get those save or dies to land, and when they are saved against they do more or less nothing..) it's that the other options just aren't up to scratch.

I may be wrong - this is my perception of the situation. If you disagree, please post some numbers.

Just to get a few of the standard issues out of the way:
- "Fireballs hit multiple targets"
Including any allies in the area, unlike say a whirlwind attack, or a great cleave.
- "The fighter is the one in danger, in melee with the monster"
The fighter has the tools to deal with this danger (good AC, HP) and the wizard is far from immune to melee, often dying in 1 round if a monster decides to dispose of them.
- "All fighters do is fight - they should be best at it"
And break in doors, and lift heavy things, and just about anything that requires a feat of strength (use your imagination). And that is only if you take your bog standard fighter. I played a fighter once (for example) that took Speak Language as a cross class skill. It was still more than enough for him to be the party linguist.
- "The wizard can do other out of combat things"
D&D is about the combat; a character that is only really useful outside of it will be dull (depending on the campaign ofc. I'm confident this is true for the majority) and most likely the role will be filled by items or an NPC cohort.
 

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