D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Masterwork Flaming Club

[two]

"In addition to enhancement bonuses, weapons can have one or more of the special abilities detailed below. A weapon with a
special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus."

Masterwork weapons:

"A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on
attack rolls...
...
The enhancement bonus of masterwork ammunition
does not stack with any enhancement bonus of the projectile weapon firing it.
All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the
masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic.."

So can you make a masterwork club flaming, and have it cost just 2.3K?

Masterwork grants a +1 enhancement bonus; a +1 enhancement bonus is required to add special weapon abilities; ergo.

Of course, I am aware this was hotly debated in 3.0

Has 3.5 changed anyone's mind, or clarified that it is NOT possible (as I think the designers intended)?

 

[The Souljourner]

From the 3.5 SRD: "A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any of the abilities listed on Table..."

This implies it has to be magic before it gets the ability, which means it has to have at least a +1 magical enhancement.

-The Souljourner

 

[sithramir]

Oops

 

[Lord Pendragon]

3.0 PH, Equipment section under "Special and Superior Items"

Weapon, Masterwork: These well-made weapons add a +1 bonus to attack rolls. Prices for these items are given on Table 7-9: Special and Superior Items. A masterwork weapon's bonus to attack does not stack with an enhancement bonus.

Has the wording actually changed in the 3.5 PH? I'd always thought this point of item creation was fairly clear: you must enchant a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus before adding special ability enchantments.

 

[Camarath]

From the 3.5 SRD

MASTERWORK WEAPONS
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
You can’t add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill). The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition). Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp).
Masterwork ammunition is damaged (effectively destroyed) when used. The enhancement bonus of masterwork ammunition does not stack with any enhancement bonus of the projectile weapon firing it.
All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.

Also from the SRD

In addition to an enhancement bonus, weapons may have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.


This does seem to indicate that masterworking grants the weapon an enhancement bonus. This may be an poorly implemented change. I think they meant to make it clearer that the masterwork bonus and magical enhancement bonuses no not stack. But it appears as if that change now allows one to make magical weapons without a magical enhancement bonuses. The last sentence in the second qoute should probly read "A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus.".

 

[Mistwell]

3.0 PH, Equipment section under "Special and Superior Items"Has the wording actually changed in the 3.5 PH? I'd always thought this point of item creation was fairly clear: you must enchant a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus before adding special ability enchantments.

Yes, it would appear the wording actually changed. Masterwork weapons now specifically provide a "+1 enchancement bonus on attack rolls". Magic weapons with a special ability "must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus". So I agree the language is now rather unclear. If I merely bought 3.5, without ever owning or knowing anything about 3.0, I believe my conclusion would be that the mastercraft enhancement bonus is sufficient to provide a base for adding a special ability.

However, knowing what I do about the proior rules and rulings, I do not believe that is what WOTC intended.

 

[kreynolds]

So can you make a masterwork club flaming, and have it cost just 2.3K?

Not in any way, shape, or form. The +1 enhancement bonus from a masterwork weapon only grants +1 to attack rolls. The magical +1 enhancement bonus grants +1 to attack and damage. Seeing as how that entire passage addresses magic items, its obviously referring to a magical enhancement and not a mastework enhancement.

I'll say the same thing I said to a buddy of mine: Yes, the text changed, and yes, it's no longer idiot proof. So, that begs the question...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Yes, it would appear the wording actually changed.

*sigh* I wonder why they did this. The 3.0 passage was one of the few perfectly clear rules in the edition. Did the need to label a masterwork bonus override the need for a clear, concise rule? Now we're left--again--trying to figure out what the differences are between "natural" enhancement bonuses and "magical" enhancement bonuses, and when they apply, when they stack, and how much they cost. Jeez.

 

[Mistwell]

Re: Re: [3.5] Masterwork Flaming Club

Not in any way, shape, or form. The +1 enhancement bonus from a masterwork weapon only grants +1 to attack rolls. The magical +1 enhancement bonus grants +1 to attack and damage. Seeing as how that entire passage addresses magic items, its obviously referring to a magical enhancement and not a mastework enhancement.

I'll say the same thing I said to a buddy of mine: Yes, the text changed, and yes, it's no longer idiot proof. So, that begs the question...

It's only obvious because you played 3.0. With all the talk in the DMG about all magic weapons needing to be masterwork, that masterwork items provide an enhancement bonus, and no mention at all that the enhancement bonus needs to be a "magical" enhancement bonus (which technically is not a category...it either is an enhancement bonus, or it is not), on its face the new rules tend toward allowing special abilities for masterwork weapons. And certainly nothing even vaguely implies it has to be an enhancement bonus to both attack and damage.

I agree that is not the likely intent of WOTC, but ONLY BECAUSE OF MY KNOWLEDGE OF 3.0. I certainly do not think it is as obvious as you state, as it is written now, nor do you have to be an idiot to come up with the interpretation that it does not require this "magical" enhancement bonus, which must apply to both attack and damage modifiers or else it does not count as this kind of enhancement bonus (as your "idiot proof" statement implies).

And by the way, given that it's been pretty well proven at this point that a flaming weapon isn't really better than a +1 weapon (see for example this thread: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59522 ) and is more a matter of taste, style, and role playing, I don't see what the big deal would be if WOTC did intend to change these rules to allow special abilities to merely masterwork weapons.

 

[Camarath]

*sigh* I wonder why they did this. The 3.0 passage was one of the few perfectly clear rules in the edition. Did the need to label a masterwork bonus override the need for a clear, concise rule? Now we're left--again--trying to figure out what the differences are between "natural" enhancement bonuses and "magical" enhancement bonuses, and when they apply, when they stack, and how much they cost. Jeez.

Isn't it fun, thanks WotC. Take a prefectly clear rule and muddle it all up. Now Masterwork gives an enhancement bonus but is it the right enhancement bonus? I don't see how we can know for certain with the text as it is. IMO the known intent now clashes with the text.