D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Monk Bonus Feats

[Legildur]

Hah!!! First session with my new monk (never played a 3.0E version as they appeared to be whimps) on Friday led to a stun on the BBEG (well, as BBEG as they get at 1st level). Resulted in Bbr cutting him in 2!!!

But yeah, Improved Grapple is a no brainer as well. Hence Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist and Improved Grapple as 1st level feats.

And I'm itching to try Enlarge Person combined with Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip and Knockdown (I know that you don't get the additional attack after the trip, but boy will it be fun to watch them try and stand up!!).

 

[FluidDragon]

I'm running a monk with Improved Grapple, Combat reflexes, and Improved trip. Picking up Spiked Chain Prof. SHould be a nice combo.

 

[Legildur]

Hey FluidDragon,

Let me know how the spiked chain works out. I've been wondering if the feat expenditure for the exotic weapon was worth it.

My 1st level monk has been carrying around a longspear. Not being proficient means taking a -4 penalty to attack, but when dealing with movement provoked AOOs and being in the second rank some of the time, a free attack at -4 (or an Aid) is better than none.

 

[Li Shenron]

1st lvl -> Impr Grapple OR Stunning Fist

2nd lvl -> Combt Reflexes OR Deflect Arrows

6th lv -> Impr Disarm OR Impr Trip

What is the logic behind these new choices for feats ? Grapple and Disarm are still a bit similar... but Combt Reflexes ? So its not a "new style". Well giving more choices is always good anyway.

Now what irks me is that in 2nd lvl I cant choose the other 1st lvl feat I didnt chose. Or can I ?

So can I get Impr. Grapple in 1st and Stunning Fist in 2nd ? (disregarding CR and DA totally)

In general what do people think of these new Monk Feat choices ?

I don't think there is any logic behind it's just an attempt to soften the rigidity of the Monk progression. Not that 3.5 Monks are much more flexible than in 3.0 IMHO...

As you already noticed by previous posts, letting a Monk choose a "lower level" bonus feat instead of what he can get would have made very sense, but somehow the writers didn't think about it. I don't think there is any reason to disallow as a house rule, but it would have been much better if it was explicitly allowed, especially because the bonus feats have nothing to do with each other, unlike for example the Ranger bonus feats which are somehow consecutive (the 2WF at least).

I would like to ask the authors why they didn't just gather those 6 feats in a "Monk bonus feats" pool just as the Fighter. Considering that the Monk has the advantage of getting the feats even without the prerequisites, there is none of those bonus feats (except Stunning Fist, which in 3e was given at level 1 as well) that could'nt be taken at level 1 by a human monk or level 3 by any other (if it needs another prereq feat).

edit: anyway, IMHO the only problem would be if a human Monk wanted at level 3 to have already both IDisarm and ITrip taken as his 1st and 3rd level feats (and CExpertise as prereq taken as human bonus feat); such a Monk would get nothing at level 6 as Monk bonus feat. Option or restriction?

 

[FluidDragon]

I don't think there is much of a balance issue to pooling the feats and letting the monk choose one. None of them are over powering. I agree I just think that the authors didn't give it much thought. They did make flurry and Ki strike better.

I have never thought of monks as weak even in 3.0. They are a more difficult class to play certainly, and they are not the Hack and Slash kung fu masters of the movies.

The bigest problem the monks have I see are this.

1. They are percieved to be a main combat class and they are not. They are a support class. Low HP and Low BaB compared to other warriors sees to this. Flurry of Blows exagerates this problem with the extra attacks but at -2 to a already lower BaB.

2. They are overly stat dependant more than any other class. They are a combat centered class but thier abilities depend on having high scores in many abilities STR for hit/damage, DEX for AC, WIS for AC and abilities tied to feats IE stunning fist DC, Con for survivability, INT for Skills, CHA is their only dump start.

Over the years I have learned a few tricks to play monks with any success.

1. Forget about Kung Fu movies

2. Arrange your stats in this order: STR, DEX/WIS (High dex if you are taking combat reflexes at 2nd) Con, INT, CHA. Strength is the most important stat. Most people sink their highest stat into DEX as it seems like the proper choice. But with the low BaB and no options to increase damage (specialization, sneak attack etc) you need every bit of bonus to STR as you can get. It is alot easier to get your AC higher than it is to get your Damage potential Higher.

Monks biggest problems are that they can't hit anything, or if they blow a feat on Weapon Finesse they can't damage anything.

3. Choose feats wizely. The "Spring Attack Chain" is bad for monks because of #2. You will have a decent AC with dex and wis bonuses, and eventually magic. Feats are more precious.

4. Grapple Grapple Grapple. Monks rule in this area. Another reason for high STR. If your STR is your highest score you don't have to blow feats to get your attack bonus higher. If you can use OA or the d20 monk supliments there are a bunch of feats that make this an even better option.

You can make a grapple attack as a TOUCH ATTACK. If successfull you deal unarmed damage which is higher for a monk than anyone else. High STR is needed here. too for damage and grapple checks. And for visualization not all grappling is done on the ground, Chin Na, Judo, Akido, Ju Jitsu among others all use 'grappling' techniques and are not 'wrestling' This is the monks best combat option against humanoids.

5. Read up on other tactics other than attack. There are alot of options. Trips are great in 3.5 as getting up from prone draws an AoO. Combat reflexes comes in handy hear as well. And there are other options. Combat IS movement. Monks have the best movement capitalise this. You are very good against humaniods. Trip the leader and keep him down, you can move better and get at the leader easier than anyone else. With Improved trip you get a free attack when you trip.

The best thing I can think of to fix the monk would be a 2 step process. 1. Make the bonus feats a pool you can choose from, adn add weapon finese to the pool. 2. Make a new feat that allows your WIS bonus to up your damage instead of STR. Basically your CHI or inner power increases your damage rather than your STR. This makes mush sense, and fits internal styles better than high STR.

To bad my dm won't go for it, no player created feats allowed so I have to throw the best score in STR and play alittle out of type.

If you had a this feat lets call it Chi Focus, pre req BaB +1 Wis 14 benifit you have learned to focus your chi, your wisdom modifier now adds to damage dealt instead of STR; Then the monk would be less stat dependant.

This 2 step process would allow the monk to be better in combat at the cost of 2 feats, but would make it MUCH less stat dependant. You could also make old masters who are very good but not strong and they would be feared. These 2 subtle changes would make a world of differeance

 

[Corwin]

And have you seen an Enlarge(d) Person monk with Combat Reflexes and the Great Throw feat? Very funny.

Hehe, yeah. My 19th level monk in our current campaign has Great Throw, Inmproved Grapple and Combat Reflexes (among other things). Since we just converted to 3.5, the wizard in our group got to cast the new Enlarge Person on me and I had a blast! Wow, that was a ton o' fun.

Something to consider about the perception that Improved Grapple is all that: Freedom of Movement. It now allows those spellcasters to completely ignore your attempts to turn them into pretzels. Trust me, I know. Very annoying.

 

[MarauderX]

I gotta put my thoughts in on this monk thread cause I am playing one I just built after my last PC croaked.

I went with a high Dex & Wis combo in order to pump up my AC to keep up with the rest of the party. I also pumped up my Int to get Expertise and take a level in Wiz. I agree that every feat is precious to a monk, as I am trying to get Grappling Block ASAP. I took two levels in fighter first in order to get the bonus feats and higher HP. So I received 2 feats from Fighter, 1 at 1st level, 1 for being human, 1 for 3rd level, the monk bonus feat (stun or impr. grapple), and scribe scroll. Oh, and he may go find a familiar to give him a little boost.

The reason I choose Dex over Str is the likelyhood of getting hit. The Str goes the route of a tough street fighter that can take some heavy hitting shots. But a monk won't be able to take those hits as often as a fighter, and with a lower AC he would be more likely to be hit. Add in mage armor and you have a monk that finally has an AC better than the fighter, although hit damage capacity is no where near what the fighter will dish out, and never will be close. Instead it's better to take weapon finesse (unarmed) to add that Dex to the weaker BAB the monk has.

 

[FluidDragon]

I gotta put my thoughts in on this monk thread cause I am playing one I just built after my last PC croaked.

I went with a high Dex & Wis combo in order to pump up my AC to keep up with the rest of the party. I also pumped up my Int to get Expertise and take a level in Wiz. I agree that every feat is precious to a monk, as I am trying to get Grappling Block ASAP. I took two levels in fighter first in order to get the bonus feats and higher HP. So I received 2 feats from Fighter, 1 at 1st level, 1 for being human, 1 for 3rd level, the monk bonus feat (stun or impr. grapple), and scribe scroll. Oh, and he may go find a familiar to give him a little boost.

The reason I choose Dex over Str is the likelyhood of getting hit. The Str goes the route of a tough street fighter that can take some heavy hitting shots. But a monk won't be able to take those hits as often as a fighter, and with a lower AC he would be more likely to be hit. Add in mage armor and you have a monk that finally has an AC better than the fighter, although hit damage capacity is no where near what the fighter will dish out, and never will be close. Instead it's better to take weapon finesse (unarmed) to add that Dex to the weaker BAB the monk has.

From my experience in 3.0 and a host of others on this board the high DEX/WIS build leads to what one person called an "inert object" you could not be hit and could not hit. The spring attack chain only made this situation worse, as using it made using FoB impossible (which CAN be usefull sometimes). Plus in order to be able to hit anything you HAVE to sink a feat into Weapon Finesse.

The biggest problem is the lack of damage, no STR, no sneak attack, no specialization. This build was only good at taking out arcane casters once you gain spell resistance. You weren't even good at killing mook's. But very good at surviving TPK's as you didn't get hit and made all your saves.

Personally I'd like to make the internal Tai Chi type martial artist but the core rules especially don't support it. What this type of build really needs is a feat that allows you to substitute your Wisdom bonus for your strength bonus to damage.

I build a 3.0 monk around Improved Grapple, Choke Hold (OA), and Earths Emprace (OA), Unbalancing stike (OA), and Expert Tactician (Sword adn fist). Str, Wis, Dex, Con, Int, Cha was the order I went in. (THis was an elvish monk)

With a coupe levels of fighter and 1 of wizard you can do some cool things.

Another good multi class is a level or 3 of druid then go monk. Your BaB is the same you'll have some better saves, spells ' entangle, bark skin, shilalea (sp), and have healing spells. Plus and animal companion.

 

[MarauderX]

Actually, I picked up a level in wizard as I already needed Int=13+ for Combat Expertise (eventually gonna get Grappling Block). It helps with the skills too -- max out tumble, add a few to jump (tumble synergy), a few points in concentration, and listen becomes the best for detection in the party. Add on Wiz1 with Mage Armor (+4 AC), Shocking Grasp (add d8+1 to damage) and Magic Missle (for an automatic hit from afar).
Taking Improved Grapple comes in handy with no AoOs, and once grappled damage starts. Add on a stunning attack to an opponent with a flurry of blows then grapple, and you got a definite advantage. Or use the stunning attack after the grapple to prevent your opponent from escaping the grapple or do anything. Then tag her once more with your second fist (flurry of blows) for the extra chance to hit.

Dang, look at me metagaming the heck outta this...

 

[Legildur]

Like FluidDragon, I favour a Str build monk (then Wis, Con, Dex, Int, Cha). I figure Con is really important to grab the extra hit points.

My original intention was to take a half-orc for the Str bonus, but DM stated that he'd have awful trouble with the local populace (best not to upsett he DM), so I took dwarf instead. Sure, I take a hit to movement until 3rd level, but the bonus to Con, darkvision, racial bonuses to saves etc make him very attractive as a package. And as he'll be concentrating on the grappling techniques (here's hoping my DM likes the OAs stuff) it fits that a burly dwarf would be a 'wrestler'.

Seriously considering taking Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) in order to close the gap with fighters on his hit probability. But there are so many other nice feats to take instead :-(

And FoB is great, even with the penalties (which reduce to -1 at 5th and 0 at 9th). 2 chances to hit at slightly reduced probability is nearly always better than a single strike (I think except where you originally need a natural 18 or 19 to hit). Of course, if you are attempting a stunning fist, then maybe FoB isn't in your best interests.

Edit: Missing word in 1st para