James McMurray
First Post
Darklone said:
So your game is not a case of the rules applying to all inhabitants of the campaign world equally? Please remind me not to play in your games.
D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5]Montes view: PrClasses?????
- Thread starter Darklone
- Start date
So your game is not a case of the rules applying to all inhabitants of the campaign world equally? Please remind me not to play in your games.
Destil
Explorer
Personally I have a nice little house rule that sort of does this. Though it's a fairly major shift:
a) No standard multiclass penelites. The classes are abstract, and multiclassing is entierly valid for some types. 20% is such a serious penelity it's really a restriction, IMHO. Also, while at first glance the multiclass penelites may look to encourage pre-3E demi-human archtypes (a elf fighter/mage who was as evenly split as possible, for instance) in fact they hurt them, since you can easily pick up one or two levels in a favored class but in non-favored classes you need to keep them even. In fact it's the non-archtypes that are encouraged by the system (uneven levels of a favored class, or even of two unfavored classes)
b) All players recieve a 5% bonus to XP when their highest level is their favored class.
c) Favored classes:
Humans treat every non-prestige class as a favored class.
Dwarves have the following favored classes: Fighter, Paladin, Cleric and Psion (savant)
Elves have the following favored classes: Bard, Wizard, Ranger and Psion (telepath)
Gnomes: Gnomes have the following favored classes: Druid, Wizard(illusionist), Bard and Psion (shaper)
Half-elves treat every non-prestige class as a favored class.
Half-Orcs have the following favored classes: Fighter, Barbarian, Psychic Warrior, Psion (egoist)
Halflings have the following favored classes: Rogue, Psion (nomad or seer), Cleric.
Tiefling (template, +1 ECL) adds sorcerer & Rogue to favored classes.
Asamar (template, +1 ECL) adds Paladin & Monk added to favored classes.
Githzeri (+2 ECL) have the following favored classes: Psion, Monk, Psychic Warrior, Wizard.
Thus when you start over-loading yourself up with PrC levels you loose out on the 5% bonus. A fair trade off, considering it's avoidable, anyway.
a) No standard multiclass penelites. The classes are abstract, and multiclassing is entierly valid for some types. 20% is such a serious penelity it's really a restriction, IMHO. Also, while at first glance the multiclass penelites may look to encourage pre-3E demi-human archtypes (a elf fighter/mage who was as evenly split as possible, for instance) in fact they hurt them, since you can easily pick up one or two levels in a favored class but in non-favored classes you need to keep them even. In fact it's the non-archtypes that are encouraged by the system (uneven levels of a favored class, or even of two unfavored classes)
b) All players recieve a 5% bonus to XP when their highest level is their favored class.
c) Favored classes:
Humans treat every non-prestige class as a favored class.
Dwarves have the following favored classes: Fighter, Paladin, Cleric and Psion (savant)
Elves have the following favored classes: Bard, Wizard, Ranger and Psion (telepath)
Gnomes: Gnomes have the following favored classes: Druid, Wizard(illusionist), Bard and Psion (shaper)
Half-elves treat every non-prestige class as a favored class.
Half-Orcs have the following favored classes: Fighter, Barbarian, Psychic Warrior, Psion (egoist)
Halflings have the following favored classes: Rogue, Psion (nomad or seer), Cleric.
Tiefling (template, +1 ECL) adds sorcerer & Rogue to favored classes.
Asamar (template, +1 ECL) adds Paladin & Monk added to favored classes.
Githzeri (+2 ECL) have the following favored classes: Psion, Monk, Psychic Warrior, Wizard.
Thus when you start over-loading yourself up with PrC levels you loose out on the 5% bonus. A fair trade off, considering it's avoidable, anyway.
Last edited:
Li Shenron
Legend
I have always had controversial feelings about 3ed multiclassing and Xp penalties.
On one side, multiclassing in 3ed works immensely better than any previous edition, and leaves any possibility open (for example, no race restrictions) to any character concept, provided that the player takes some disadvantage when he goes too far. This is good, because IMHO if a player has a concept he wants to develop about his character, there should always be the possibility to do it, if it makes sense obviously.
On the other side, 3ed multiclassing quickly became exploited by every so-called powergamer in search of the best combination to maximize his character, and concept usually follows the maxing choice instead of vice-versa. 3.5 attempted to spread class abilities over more levels exactly to lessen this kind of abuse, but obviously it won't get rid of the problem totally.
Furthermore, I still like D&D as a class-based game rather than an ability-based game; I know that's my view anyway, and others hope it to become less class-oriented. Usually, multiclassing or "prestigeclassing" is said to be a mean to versatility, but 90% of the time is used as a mean to specialization, i.e. exactly the opposite.
Back to the Xp penalty, it's probably difficult if not impossible to come up with a rule which would 1) allow any combination without spoiling good RP ideas, and 2) avoid exploiting powergaming. A rules lawyer or munchkin (very often the same person aka "ruleslayer"
) will always find the hole that lets him make a pesky PC without penalties.
It seems to me that the original idea beyond the Xp penalty was to freely allow these kinds of characters:
- single-classed
- multiclass evenly in 2 or more classes
- basically single-class but with few levels in another (provided that one of the 2 is the favored class)
PrCl don't give Xp penalties IMHO because you always get the 1st level when you are at least a 6th level PC; if you got Xp penalties, you had to be of your favored class to get any PrCl.
Ultimately, the DM is the only one who can encourage sensible multiclassing. I would allow anything by the rules, but if one of my players had more than 2 core classes and/or more than 1 PrCl, it's definitely going to be difficult for him to RP his PC: as I used to give RP award (in Xp), even if he doesn't have an Xp penalty by the rules, he'd better have a very good reason for such a PC, play it excellently, or get few RP Xp from me.
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A side note:
I don't think the Archmage and the Hierophant are a PrCl the same way the others are. A PrCl is normally some kind of specialization, possibly associated with a group who holds specific knowledge otherwise unavailable, which usually takes a PC through its levels with little interruption (unless you took the PrCl for munchkininsm).
Acm and Hie don't show any progression deeper into a field; every single level of those classes gives the same as the other levels (don't look at BAB and ST for this purpose), which typically is a single and very special ability freely chosen among a list. They work exactly like you were spending a level worth of Xp to buy yourself a specific ability by choice. For this reason I really like these 2 PrCl -- note that normally I HATE PrCl with less than 10 levels! -- and unlike the other PrCl I think it makes sense for a PC to get just 1 or 2 levels, and maybe every 10 years or so.
On one side, multiclassing in 3ed works immensely better than any previous edition, and leaves any possibility open (for example, no race restrictions) to any character concept, provided that the player takes some disadvantage when he goes too far. This is good, because IMHO if a player has a concept he wants to develop about his character, there should always be the possibility to do it, if it makes sense obviously.
On the other side, 3ed multiclassing quickly became exploited by every so-called powergamer in search of the best combination to maximize his character, and concept usually follows the maxing choice instead of vice-versa. 3.5 attempted to spread class abilities over more levels exactly to lessen this kind of abuse, but obviously it won't get rid of the problem totally.
Furthermore, I still like D&D as a class-based game rather than an ability-based game; I know that's my view anyway, and others hope it to become less class-oriented. Usually, multiclassing or "prestigeclassing" is said to be a mean to versatility, but 90% of the time is used as a mean to specialization, i.e. exactly the opposite.
Back to the Xp penalty, it's probably difficult if not impossible to come up with a rule which would 1) allow any combination without spoiling good RP ideas, and 2) avoid exploiting powergaming. A rules lawyer or munchkin (very often the same person aka "ruleslayer"
) will always find the hole that lets him make a pesky PC without penalties.It seems to me that the original idea beyond the Xp penalty was to freely allow these kinds of characters:
- single-classed
- multiclass evenly in 2 or more classes
- basically single-class but with few levels in another (provided that one of the 2 is the favored class)
PrCl don't give Xp penalties IMHO because you always get the 1st level when you are at least a 6th level PC; if you got Xp penalties, you had to be of your favored class to get any PrCl.
Ultimately, the DM is the only one who can encourage sensible multiclassing. I would allow anything by the rules, but if one of my players had more than 2 core classes and/or more than 1 PrCl, it's definitely going to be difficult for him to RP his PC: as I used to give RP award (in Xp), even if he doesn't have an Xp penalty by the rules, he'd better have a very good reason for such a PC, play it excellently, or get few RP Xp from me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A side note:
I don't think the Archmage and the Hierophant are a PrCl the same way the others are. A PrCl is normally some kind of specialization, possibly associated with a group who holds specific knowledge otherwise unavailable, which usually takes a PC through its levels with little interruption (unless you took the PrCl for munchkininsm).
Acm and Hie don't show any progression deeper into a field; every single level of those classes gives the same as the other levels (don't look at BAB and ST for this purpose), which typically is a single and very special ability freely chosen among a list. They work exactly like you were spending a level worth of Xp to buy yourself a specific ability by choice. For this reason I really like these 2 PrCl -- note that normally I HATE PrCl with less than 10 levels! -- and unlike the other PrCl I think it makes sense for a PC to get just 1 or 2 levels, and maybe every 10 years or so.
No one here can figure out a way to encourage the fighter/wizard/eldrich knight without discouraging the 7 class powergaming monster. This is why I default to the basic rules with note of "DM should approve multiclassing".
In one game, I had a player who kept taking different classes because the character was being pulled in different direction. Fighter, ranger, weapon master, gladiator. In the end, it wasn't powergaming because he didn't get all that much power out of it, but I was ready to nix it. Looking back, I like the idea as a character trying to find himself. I wouldn't want him to have XP penalties.
In one game, I had a player who kept taking different classes because the character was being pulled in different direction. Fighter, ranger, weapon master, gladiator. In the end, it wasn't powergaming because he didn't get all that much power out of it, but I was ready to nix it. Looking back, I like the idea as a character trying to find himself. I wouldn't want him to have XP penalties.
James McMurray
First Post
LokiDR said:
House Rule: Only one prestige class and two other classes allowed. DM approval is required for all multi-classing choices.
There you go, I figured out a way to encourage the F/W/EK while avoiding the Mnk/Pal/Sor (or whatever other class combo you may feel is power-gaming).
Generally speaking its a poor idea to talk in absolutes, as it is very rare for something to be only one way all the time.
Corinth
First Post
SKR contacted WOTC. WOTC replied, telling him that PrCs are still exempt from multiclassing XP penalties. Ergo, WOTC acknowledged that this was an error. Pay attention, man!Christian said:Acknowledged by whom? WOTC hasn't released any official errata-the only statement that it's an error has been unofficial and relayed to the 'net by a person who left WOTC over a year ago. And heck, people never even believe Sage Advice.
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