D&D General The 3.5 Binder was a really cool class

[Kurotowa]

In a similar vein, FF Blue/Beast Mages, though they haven't had nearly the same level of care or attention. There's a definite through line of the enjoyment I get from characters who derive their power from distinct setting-specific entities.

Blue Mages don't work very well in a D&D context for, ironically, a thing that some people have complained about. Which is that a lot of monster abilities are just spells from the PHB, not unique bespoke powers. Which kind of ruins the point. (Also it'd be an even worse "The MM is my PHB" class than Moon Druid.)

I do feel you, though. I'm always trying to train my PC's class into the setting somehow. Where they trained, how they got their blessing, that sort of thing. It's why I love the flavor of Warlocks, even if I don't vibe with the mechanics of the 5e version.

 

[Alzrius]

Hey folks, can we either get back to talking about the Binder or let this thread die? Because I'd love to talk more about the Binder.

Started rereading my copy of Tome of Magic a couple of nights ago, and I'm pleasantly surprised by just how much of my nostalgia of the flavour is not, in fact, rose-coloured glasses. I will say though, that due to said flavour, it's even more tightly bound to a setting than even a cleric is. With clerics, their god can be abstracted (especially since you can "worship" a concept for your power). But with the Binder, each Vestige is a unique character, many of which their backstories and powersets are closely tied into a specific world's history.

I'd love to find other games with similar classes, where your bargaining for power with distinct entities is actually mechanically reinforced. It's almost enough to make me want to play PF1 again.

I think that there's an inherent design strength to the binder's having thematic packages of abilities (i.e. vestiges) that can be swapped out on a regular basis. Leaving aside the versatility involved, this makes it easier to note which vestiges have design problems, and so can be dealt with in isolation rather than needing to get deeper into the chassis that the class is built around. Likewise, custom vestiges are similarly easier to design, if there's an area that the current ones don't (adequately) cover.

 

[Seramus]

As mentioned, it wouldn't be hard to use the Warlock chassis. Each Vestige would be a set of Invocations and 1-5 spells known while that Vestige is bound. You gain the ability to bind multiple as you increase in level, etc

Most of the Invocations would need to be custom of course.

 

[BrokenTwin]

Blue Mages don't work very well in a D&D context for, ironically, a thing that some people have complained about. Which is that a lot of monster abilities are just spells from the PHB, not unique bespoke powers. Which kind of ruins the point. (Also it'd be an even worse "The MM is my PHB" class than Moon Druid.)

I do feel you, though. I'm always trying to train my PC's class into the setting somehow. Where they trained, how they got their blessing, that sort of thing. It's why I love the flavor of Warlocks, even if I don't vibe with the mechanics of the 5e version.

I mean, D&D functionally DID have a Blue Mage in the 3.5 era, I even mentioned it earlier in this thread: Magic of Incarnum's Totemist. You didn't learn your abilities directly from monsters, but you're essentially channelling the platonic ideal of them. Was a lot of fun. But way too fiddly for modern D&D.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Other point is if there is a 5e update vestige-binder class after to introduce new vestiges is more difficult. This happened in 3.5 Ed. Some ones apeared in Dragon magazine, and other in "Dragon Magic".

And magic items for vestige pacts need a special design. Maybe a vestige companion could work like a monster ally or demiPC. We shouldn't be surprised if WotC bets for vestige-pacts could be used by the rest of classes, maybe thanks some magic item.

The 3.5 class was designed with powers without time-limit. In the 5ed or the vestige only can be changed each short rest or the gifts will lack time-limit because a player can't spend all the powers of a vestige and after to change with other a reloaded pack of power slots.

 

[fuindordm]

I also loved the Binder--my favorite chapter from the Tome of Magic.

I think in 5e the Binder is functionally closest to a warlock (no duh!). The main difference being that instead of having a single, consistent patron, the PC could switch between patrons with a long rest, and eventually have 2, 3 or even 4 simultaneously. It is too different to be a subclass of warlock, but it can easily be done as a variant class.

A vestige patron gives:

• One skill bonus or proficiency
• One minor passive
• One spell prepared per level for spell levels 1-5
• One exceptional ability 1/day (e.g. one of the vestige spells is empowered, or some other flavorful ability)

The Binder warlock wouldn't bind to GOO, Archfey, or the other major patrons but they could bind to vestiges in the same arcane category.

Now the tricky thing is the wizard-ish aspect. Binders should be motivated to seek out unknown vestiges or try to learn the sigils of vestiges they've heard about. I would give them two known vestiges at 1st level and another "free vestige" at every even level, but also allow them to discover vestiges in play similar to wizards. Out of a catalogue of 30-40 total, 12 guaranteed seems reasonable.

That covers up to level 10 or so... the higher level abilities could be very different from a warlock but still give access to occasional magic equivalent to 6th to 9th level spells.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I sincerely apologize for having derailed the thread. I will say nothing more on the previous subject, and will only reply further if I have something productive to say about the Binder. Again, my sincere apologies.

Perhaps as a starting point:

If we want to ensure that some modern form of Binder really stands out against casting and such, what do folks think the thing needs to do? What ways can Vestiges be kept clearly distinct from spells, while still being cool and worthwhile? It's quite possible others have already mentioned stuff in the thread, I haven't been keeping close track.

The biggest difference I saw was how each new vestige really changed your role - it wasn’t a spell list, it was a set of at-will abilities that pushed you towards a specific style of play.

I do think this would be very hard to make work since presumably most roles are already spoken for so the best vestige to prepare each day will be the same until the party changes, but if Binder is going to be its own class it needs to be a lot more versatile than just switching cantrips.

Edit: Also, 100% agreed on setting-boundedness. Reminds me of the Final Fantasy Summoner. No job in FF has more "this is specific to THIS setting" energy than Summoner. Every game does it differently, sometimes radically so. Sometimes they're functionally White Mages with some powerful flashy spells. Sometimes they're Black Mages! Sometimes they're utility specialists, or DoT-focused, or literally the entire focus of the narrative (e.g. Clive Rosfield in FFXVI), or a variety of other things.