D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 - Multiclass XP penalty -20% yay or nay?
- Thread starter Jon_Dahl
- Start date
RUMBLETiGER
Adventurer
sarcasm aside...
This build, assuming leveled evenly, would not suffer from xp multiclass penalty anyway due to class levels never being more then 1 level apart.
Wyvernhand
First Post
Ah. That brings me to my 2nd point. Who benefits an who doesn't from multiclassing. Casters generally only care about 1 thing...spells. A caster gets more spells ONLY from their specific base class. PrCs can also advance casting, but since there are no MC penalties for PrCs, I'm gonna ignore that. So...a cleric is generally going to take more cleric levels because the only thing that gives him more cleric spells is...cleric levels. Taking a level of wizard doesn't give him any ability to cast higher level cleric spells, so this is generally avoided.
Non-casters, however, rely on 3ish things. BAB, HP, and skills. Those 3 things can come from any NUMBER of classes. It doesn't matter if you got your BAB from 15 levels of barbarian, 15 levels in fighter, or some combination of both or neither. Its all the same BAB, and it all helps you Power Attack harder. Same thing with HP. HP all stack, regardless of where you got them from. And skill points. So, a fighter who takes a level of barbarian gets, for the most part, the same major properties he would have gotten from another level of fighter. He gets +1 BAB, a handful of HP, and some different skills. The only difference is that he's trading out one set of class features (bonus feats) for another (RAGE). As such, most melee characters benefit from mixing and matching classes, picking up the features they want.
Spellcasters customize their characters by picking different spells. Non-spellcasters customize their characters by multiclassing. So who gets punished for multiclassing? Non-spellcasters. Come on man, that like kicking a 3-legged dog who also is blind and incontinent. Spare the poor fella some dignity.
Non-casters, however, rely on 3ish things. BAB, HP, and skills. Those 3 things can come from any NUMBER of classes. It doesn't matter if you got your BAB from 15 levels of barbarian, 15 levels in fighter, or some combination of both or neither. Its all the same BAB, and it all helps you Power Attack harder. Same thing with HP. HP all stack, regardless of where you got them from. And skill points. So, a fighter who takes a level of barbarian gets, for the most part, the same major properties he would have gotten from another level of fighter. He gets +1 BAB, a handful of HP, and some different skills. The only difference is that he's trading out one set of class features (bonus feats) for another (RAGE). As such, most melee characters benefit from mixing and matching classes, picking up the features they want.
Spellcasters customize their characters by picking different spells. Non-spellcasters customize their characters by multiclassing. So who gets punished for multiclassing? Non-spellcasters. Come on man, that like kicking a 3-legged dog who also is blind and incontinent. Spare the poor fella some dignity.
Dandu
First Post
Prestige classes are not exempt from multiclassing penalties by RAW. That makes me technically correct - the best kind of correct.
Wyvernhand
First Post
Yea they are. Check out the DMG at the chapter prior to the listing of the PrCs. I don't have the page number atm, but its there, in the book.
PureGoldx58
First Post
I don't always ignore RAW, but when I do, it is xp penalty.
Jackinthegreen
Explorer
In the 3.5 DMG, there is nothing mentioning whether PrC's are exempt from the multiclass XP penalty. In fact, the first line in the Prestige Class section starts off with "Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing" which unfortunately puts it squarely in the penalty box.
An XP penalty for PrC's is a terrible idea though. On top of having to qualify for it, they get an experience penalty? No thanks.
The SRD has added the line about no multiclass penalties though. Where they got it from I'm not sure, but one of the rumors is that a designer gave a very strong opinion that XP penalties shouldn't apply.
RUMBLETiGER
Adventurer
o.o....
.... O.O!!.... ¬.¬.Great Oogly Moogly! It's not in there!
I sit corrected.
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Eldritch_Lord
Adventurer
It was in the 3.0 DMG, but isn't in the 3.5 DMG. The second paragraph of the 3.0 DMG contains the following:
3.0 DMG said:
Why this wasn't addressed in the errata I'm not sure, but the designers are on record as saying that the first 3 paragraphs of the 3.0 DMG PrC section (a fluff intro paragraph, the above "like multiclassing but not" paragraph, and a paragraph stating that PrCs shouldn't be available for characters until 5th or 6th level) shouldn't have been cut and were intended to still apply to 3.5 PrCs.
Regarding the general thread topic, I don't enforce multiclass penalties, for a few reasons. As already stated, the favored class systems means that new classes aren't as supported as existing ones even when the new ones are a much closer fit for the race flavor-wise; when tiefling hexblade/warlocks and elf ranger/scouts are taking penalties relative to tiefling rogue/warlocks and elf ranger/wizards, you know something is screwy. Also as already stated, the penalty completely fails in its objective because (A) it attempts to make Class 1 X/Class 2 Y/Class 3 Z/etc. builds unappealing relative to single-class or 50/50 split builds, yet a 2/2/2/2/2/2 multiclass takes no penalty while a 7/5 multiclass does and (B) it hopes to enforce a power/flexibility parity yet casters are better single-classed and martial characters are better multiclassed.
Speaking of martial class multiclassing, the reason that many people here seem to want to keep the penalty is exactly why I want to remove it. The barbarian is apparently too front-loaded according to frankthedm, and others have said the dips are bad because you get too much for a single-level investment. On the contrary: every class should give that many abilities at every level, and the fact that they don't is a failing of 3.5. A 1st level barbarian gets rage, fast movement, martial weapon proficiency, light and medium armor proficiency, good HD, good Fort, and full BAB. A 1st level monk gets a bonus feat, flurry of blows, extra unarmed damage, extra speed, Wis to AC, all good saves, and good skills. A 1st level wizard gets 3+Int spells known, 4 spells per day, a familiar, good Will, and Scribe Scroll. They're relatively even in terms of number and power of options granted. Most classes are like that for the first 2-5 levels. Then, however, you get to the "PrC out now!" level range, and while at 7th level the wizard gains 2 spells known and 1 1st and 1 4th level spell per day, the monk gets a point of BAB and some self healing (in an amount that is eclipsed by a single casting of the cure critical wounds that his 7th-level cleric buddy got on top of access to every other 4th-level cleric spell) and the barbarian gets a point of BAB and DR 1/-- (which does practically nothing against CR-appropriate monsters like the bulette, who deals at least 4d8+2d6+20 per round with 3 attacks and more with Leap). The 7th-level fighter gets nothing but a point of BAB, as does the paladin.
By the time you get to higher levels, it's even worse. A 17th-level barbarian gets the ability to ignore post-rage fatigue and a point of BAB. A 17th-level paladin gets a single 3rd-level spell per day and a point of BAB. A 17th-level monk gets the ability to talk to things and the ability to ignore age penalties. A 17th-level fighter gets nothing but a point of BAB. Meanwhile, a 17th-level core caster gets two of wish, miracle, astral projection, or shapechange. That is embarrassingly bad for the martial types, even the ones who get real class features. DMs should encourage martial characters to dip frequently, because that's the only way for them to get worthwhile class features after a while. Ideally, martial classes should be getting 2-3 good, useful class features per level (plus some optional flavor BS like "can avoid falling damage while near a wall, but not nearly as well as a level 1 spell" and "can ignore some damage, but not in quantities that actually matter"), but until someone rewrites all the classes to accomplish that, dipping shouldn't be vilified but rather encouraged.
Vegepygmy
First Post
They should have errata'd it, but it's in the 3.5 FAQ:
In the previous version of the D&D game, having levels in a prestige class never caused you to pay the experience penalty for being a multiclass character without uneven class levels. (The prestige class levels didn’t count when checking to see if you had a penalty.) The section on prestige classes in the new Dungeon Master’s Guide no longer mentions that you don’t suffer an experience penalty for having levels in a prestige class. Is this a change or an error?
It’s an error. Having levels in a prestige class won’t give you an experience penalty.
