D&D General Multiclassing Shouldn't be Treated as the Default

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I agree. I know people who didn't even know those rules were optional and had always assumed them baseline.

That said, I'm really disappointed with the removal of the "this is optional" wording. Now as a DM, I'm gonna have to actively ban those from my games instead of just not opting in like I used to do.
That's always the problem with this stuff. It's just so much easier to restrict things when you have something in the book to point at that backs you up.
 

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As a thought experiment, if Multiclassing rules included a clause like "all levels taken in a class must be taken consecutively" (i.e., once you leave a class to level in another one, you can never again level in the original class, similar to dual-classing in 1E) would multi-classing be nearly as popular?
It wouldn't change that much.

Casters start off as lv1 Fighter/Sorc, and then won't switch from their caster class, because it'd mess with their spell levels.

People who want to cosplay as mobile turrets pick Warlock2 first, and then start levelling up whatever their main class will be, confident in that Eldritch Blast will take care of their combat contributions on its own, so they can pick literally any niche crap they want without letting the party down.

Martials are heavily incentivized to multiclass after lv5, but... You don't usually end up bouncing between two classes, because the reason you left the main class in the first place was because it didn't have enough stuff to offer... it won't miraculously be better when you come back to it. You'd be fine as Barbarian5/Fighter4/Rogue4... and tack on a Cleric4 at the end if you had to.

Even something like 2024 Thief wanting to dip into Wizard/Cleric to get access to their scrolls (to use as a bonus action), would just mean they had to pick their lv1 as the caster class and then continue on as Rogue. It'd cost them a skill proficiency, but that's about it.

The ones limited would be the 'I am picking stuff based on my feelings and what happened during this level' people doing it for the roleplay/story.
 
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ezo

Get off my lawn!
It is fairly normal for any caster dipping into Sorcerer for con save proficiency or into Fighter for con save proficiency + heavy armor proficiency, since it has to be the first level or you don't get the benefit. Otherwise you are right though, there's no reason to care about having your 1 level dip come first so it makes sense to establish your main class features first.
Maybe in your experience, but again not in mine.

If concentration is that vital to a build, I would rather just have Resilience for CON, get the CON +1 as well, or go War Caster to gain advantage on Concentration checks. War Caster is also much more useful for the martial caster builds allowing you to have your hands full and still cast, not to mention OA spell options.

"Over-rated" is obviously subjective, but to me a 35% chance to lose concentration on my build-defining spell is just NOT something I would ever want to tolerate.

If we're talking about a crowd control spell like banish or polymorph then I could agree - even if concentration breaks you probably get some value out of the partial duration CC, plus even just making enemies waste time breaking your concentration is crowd control in itself to a degree

But if we're talking about a build-defining offensive spell like spirit guardians, conjure minor elementals, spike growth, haste, etc, where you need a setup turn that pays off on the next round, you damn well better keep concentration near 100% of the time or else you're sitting there feeling useless all combat
Again, War Caster and advantage is better than simple proficiency most of the time.

A simple CON 14 (+2) with advantage will make the DC 10 check 87.75% of the time.
A CON 14 (+2) with proficiency requires +4 proficiency (+6 total) just to have an 85% chance. That is 9th level, which is towards the ends of the game most of the time. And you need +5 (13th level) to have the better 90% chance.

So, yeah, War Caster is a feat so has a cost, but a great one if Concentration is a must for your build. While the cost is high, you are not suffering the minimum 1 level lag the dip cost you in progressing in your main class.

In 2014 any way, a dip just for CON saves is not a great option IME. In 2024 it is probably better... since pretty much every thing is... :rolleyes:
 

DrJawaPhD

Adventurer
If concentration is that vital to a build, I would rather just have Resilience for CON, get the CON +1 as well, or go War Caster to gain advantage on Concentration checks.
Depends heavily on the situation.

Starting with a Fighter dip is preferred if you want to bump Concentration saves but also want heavy armor proficiency (and a free fighting style for +1 AC), and these benefits outweigh the painful delay in spell progression by an entire level.

Starting with a Sorcerer dip is preferred if you want to bump Concentration saves but also want access to Shield spell plus Silvery Barbs. This only delays progression of when you first get to choose spells, so it especially works well when you would be upcasting your build-defining spell since spell slot progression is not delayed.

If I didn't care about Shield/Silvery Barbs or Heavy Armor, and also had no desire to later dip a second level for Metamagic or Action Surge, then yeah I'd probably agree with you and go the Resilient Con route. The big problem with this though is you delay getting War Caster. If I'm building around a concentration spell, I'd make sure to have both Con proficiency and War Caster unless I had Eldritch Mind or Mind Sharpener.

Anyways I'm pretty sure my original point here was just that having subclasses move to Level 3 had little/no impact on multiclassing. That's still true in everything we've discussed above
 

GrimCo

Hero
Well, that is YOUR take on what a dip is...

Generally, it isn't first. You do it within the first few levels, by dipping into another class, and then getting the hell out.

Usually, everything you get from what is your "main class" is important enough that you want that FIRST, not second. ;)

IME, I can't recall a single instance of someone who dipped in a class at level 1, to change for the rest of the game to a different class, without ever returning to the first.

That's exactly what i did. First 2 levels of fighter, than 11 levels of wizard (abjurer). There wasn't any reason to take more levels of fighter, got all i needed from those first 2 levels. By going fighter first, it increased low level survival.

Personally, i have no problem with multiclassing. Especially since you need 13+ in stats for both your primary and secondary class. Compared to wild builds from 3e days, 5e MC combos are tame.
 


Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I haven't read the entire thread, but an important point (credit to Monty from the Dungeon Dudes for making me realize this):

People say that multiclassing allows more choice. This is true... but it also takes choices away from the game!

Say I'm a game designer, and think of this amazing ability for a sorcerer, that would totally fit and be fun ... but if it's comboed with another ability from another class it is bonkers powerful. Well, you can't add this to the game! Multiclassing is incredibly restrictive to class design.
 

Say I'm a game designer, and think of this amazing ability for a sorcerer, that would totally fit and be fun ... but if it's comboed with another ability from another class it is bonkers powerful. Well, you can't add this to the game! Multiclassing is incredibly restrictive to class design.
Only if you put that ability in the first few levels of a class, and/or give every single feature when multiclassed into.

That WotC insists on doing so is not the only way it could be done.
 
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FarBeyondC

Explorer
I haven't read the entire thread, but an important point (credit to Monty from the Dungeon Dudes for making me realize this):

People say that multiclassing allows more choice. This is true... but it also takes choices away from the game!

Say I'm a game designer, and think of this amazing ability for a sorcerer, that would totally fit and be fun ... but if it's comboed with another ability from another class it is bonkers powerful. Well, you can't add this to the game! Multiclassing is incredibly restrictive to class design.
The real problem here isn't with the synergistic effect, but with how bad both hypothetical classes are.

If a single feature from one class added to another class makes said other class so much better than either class on their own to the point that it's a problem, your classes are too weak.
 

ezo

Get off my lawn!
Depends heavily on the situation.
Sure, but in general I think my position holds. There are always exceptions.

Starting with a Fighter dip is preferred if you want to bump Concentration saves but also want heavy armor proficiency (and a free fighting style for +1 AC), and these benefits outweigh the painful delay in spell progression by an entire level.
Will you also have the STR 15 to wear that heavy armor without penalties? In general, probably not if you are then wizard or something similar. More likely medium armor proficiency and shield (both available if you MC into fighter later on) along with the fighting style. Then you only need the STR 13 and can probably wear/carry the medium armor easily.

Regardless, War Caster is patently better most of the time than just getting CON save proficiency...

Starting with a Sorcerer dip is preferred if you want to bump Concentration saves but also want access to Shield spell plus Silvery Barbs. This only delays progression of when you first get to choose spells, so it especially works well when you would be upcasting your build-defining spell since spell slot progression is not delayed.

If I didn't care about Shield/Silvery Barbs or Heavy Armor, and also had no desire to later dip a second level for Metamagic or Action Surge, then yeah I'd probably agree with you and go the Resilient Con route. The big problem with this though is you delay getting War Caster. If I'm building around a concentration spell, I'd make sure to have both Con proficiency and War Caster unless I had Eldritch Mind or Mind Sharpener.
IME CON proficiency and War Caster is overkill, so I wouldn't bother with Resilient (but if the starting class has CON, so be it...).

For me, playing casters, that one-level delay isn't a big deal in tier 1, but in later parts of the game where leveling takes longer, missing those higher-level spells and additional spell slots, sorcery points, invocations, or whatever I am missing out on, hurts.

Anyways I'm pretty sure my original point here was just that having subclasses move to Level 3 had little/no impact on multiclassing. That's still true in everything we've discussed above
Oh, I agree 100% on this point. IME few people MC for the "subclass" features. The front-loads in levels 1 and 2 for the core class is mostly what people are after!
 

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