[3.5] Perform -- Does it annoy you as well?

[shoplifter]

We wouldn't be having this discussion if the ranks in all Perform "skills" would stack for Bardic Songs

I'm also quite surprised that this isn't the case. If one used the various items from So&Si, then the varied Perform skills would make some sense, but there's nothing really in straight vanilla D&D that rewards taking more that one perform skill. Maybe they could have come up with different Bardic Abilities based upon Perfomance types. As it is, it's just a point sink.

 

[chalcedony]

It also means that most 3.5 bards will be taking Perform(song) over the other Perform skills - using a stringed or wind instrument to inspire greatness/courage/heroics would mean that you can't fight while doing it.

I thought that 3.5 would make my Bard more skilled (I have this whole story revolving around his master's mandolin in his background) - but with the new Perform system there's almost no difference in skill points.

I would allow a Bard to take up an additional Perform type for every 3 ranks in Perform

 

[genshou]

Ahh, the classic destruction of Perform. We all saw it coming (at least those of us with other d20 System products), but could do nothing to prevent it. I'm using said house rule: 3.0 for bards (who by definition are jacks of all trades), and 3.5 for all others.

Oh, and Lord Jere, I must agree with your line of thought, as represented by the following quote:

Bah! To the Ninth Layer of Hell with your realism, let me play a bard character that I enjoy!

And I feel that way when I have only once played a bard, he was multiclassed in ranger and rogue as well, and it was for story reasons alone.

P.S. some of you people have cool avatars over on the left. I'm new to this site, how do I get a bishie character up there?

 

[Herremann the Wise]

For those of you who have played a Bladesinger, you may have already come across this issue before - having to purchase ranks in both Performance (singing) and Performance (dancing). A difficult situation when they are cross-class skills for most classes trying to achieve the Bladesinger prestige class.

However, quoting the Perform skills from the 3.5 SRD:

• Act (comedy, drama, mime)
• Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
• Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
• Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
• Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
• Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
• String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
• Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, shawm, trumpet)
• Sing (ballad, chant, melody)

I'd say the new system is fair and perhaps focuses on a Bard Specialising in a performance area where as before, it was a little less focused and believable - although some would say this was the true magic of the Bard.

However, the real issue becomes dramatically thinning out the skill point pool if you want to be the Bard who could entertain anyone and everyone. Obviously, this imbalance could be re-weighted with Synergy Bonuses:

5 Ranks Sing -> +2 to Act, Comedy, Oratory
5 Ranks Dance -> +2 to Act, Comedy
5 Ranks Instrument (Percussion, String, Wind) -> +2 to Sing and Other Instrument Classes.

This treats Song, Dance and Instrument as the base Performance skills.

Now while this does not alleviate the problem with Ranks for Bardic Performance abilities - although more base skill points should help - it at least rounds out the role-playing aspect of the Bard. Your performances in a variety of mediums should be quite good even though as a Bard, you will tend to focus on one over the others. Just an idea.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[TalonComics]

Yeah, that's annoying.
The problem being is that the d20 system just hamstrings everyone with the way skills work anyway.

I would much rather see a Hero System style skill system than the D&D skill pt. system.

My Dwarven Cleric gets a whopping 2 skill points every he time levels. Big whoop! This doesn't even come close to being explained either. I thought many religious types were very educated which is apparently not the case when it comes to D&D Clerics.

~D

 

[Shadowdancer]

However, quoting the Perform skills from the 3.5 SRD:

• Act (comedy, drama, mime)

This is a pet peeve of mine, but it shouldn't be comedy and drama as two seperate types of acting. It should be comedy and tragedy. The two aspects of drama, as represented by the two masks, are comedy and tragedy.

Everyone, including TNT ("we know drama"), uses drama to represent "serious" acting, or the opposite of comedy. But in reality, tragedy is the dramatic opposite of comedy.

And if they are going to have comedy as a type of acting, then they shouldn't also have a Perform type that is called comedy, representing buffoonery, slapstick, etc. It can get confusing.

 

[The Little Raven]

It also introduces a worse problem that 3E Perform: the categorization of Performance types. They are very limiting, and incomplete in scope.

Limiting? Incomplete?

Do you know anything about performing?

Look at Peform (Acting)... comedy and drama... I've met incredibly talented actors that can move an audience to tears, but be unable to tell a joke to save their lives. Two completely different styles of performing, and they are lumped under the same heading. I don't find that very limiting.

How about Perform (Wind Instruments), which allows you to play the flute *AND* trumpet, which are two completely different instruments that are handled and played completely differently. I don't find that very limiting.

That's like saying all Craft skills should be merged into a single one... after all, beating a piece of metal into a breastplate and beating a piece of metal into a sword are more similar than playing a flute or trumpet.

However, I have to buy Craft (weaponsmithing) and Craft (armorsmithing) separately, but I don't really see any complaints on that being limited. After all, if you want to play a Fighter than maintains his armor and weapons himself (which a good fighter should be able to do), you have to spend up all your skill points and not be able to pick up other things, such as Intimidate, Ride or Jump.

Not all bards can dance. Not all bards can sing. Not all bards can act. Not all bards can play instruments. If you want to play that kind of bard, then spend the points that way. If you only want a single Perform skill to rely on, then by all means, do so.

 

[The Little Raven]

It isn't like Knowledges, Crafts, and Professions. There is no non-rp difference between Perform: Winds and Perform: Sing.

Actually, there's a big difference when I smash your instruments to little bits, and because you decided not to take any Perform (Sing), you lose the ability to use your bardic music.

So... there is a game mechanic difference between the two... you can't use instrument-based Perform without an instrument.

A singer can't sing without his voice... a lutist can't play without his lute... a dancer can't dance when he's paralyzed. These facts in and of themselves convince me to pick more than one type of Peform as a bard... enemies can't easily rob you of your abilities if you spread them about.

 

[chalcedony]

Reading through the SRD (and really scrutinizing this time), I would say that all you need to gain the bardic music abilities is the required Perform skill in any category.

Say if I have 12 ranks in Perform(stringed) but 6 ranks in Perform(Sing), then I would have gained access to Inspire Greatness. However, I do not have to bring out my mandolin and play it during combat to use the ability.

This would make more sense. After all, if I have only ranks in Perform (oratory) - don't expect me to delve into a deep and moving speech in the middle of combat! Or if I have only high ranks in Perform(dance), I *must* dance in the middle of combat.

You unlock the secrets of bardic music through pursuing a particular field over the others, but your audience (your party), aren't bothered with the intricacies of that mime act you're putting on in front of that dragon.

And bardic music abilities are *supposed* to only be effective when your companions can *hear* you - otherwise, let's all take Perform(acting) then - mime our way through silence spells.

Heck, if I'm an actor, do I have to countersong only by acting?

And your enemies don't have to rob you of your abilities - you've already done that for them by spreading them about.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I thought it was a well-executed change. Bards should not be skilled in that many types of performance. Most master performers who excel are specialized in one particular skill, two at the most. There are plenty of real world examples to support this assertion.

I still remember my bard being able to play just about any instrument, sing, tell stories, dance, act and do just about any other type of performance with a high level of skill which always seemed a little over the top.

I think this was a good change. If you want to add style to your bard, then you should be willing to spend the skill points to do so.