[3.5] Perform -- Does it annoy you as well?

[Steverooo]

No Synergy, PLEASE!

Synergy anyone? Once you have 10 ranks in guitar you get +5 in Banjo, ukelalee etc. Singing give to things like Story telling, poems etc. You see?

So Max. Skill Ranks is Level + 8, instead of Level + 3? Or we have a klunky, special rule of "You get the +5 Synergy Bonus (when all others are +2), nut only to Max. Skill Ranks."? I think there are better ways... (see later post).

Synergy Bonuses are all +2 for five Ranks, anyway. +5 for 10 seems off, to me. Your opinion may vary.

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

Genshou -- Check your email.

I think it is more realistic....but my theory has always been that this is a fantasy game so what is reality? Besides I can think of plenty of artists who sing/play an instrument equally well.

Currently my bard/sorcerer mainly used Perform (to which I have a +10) for things such as performing at Inns for free room and board. She sings/ tells epic poems and plays the mandolin, depending on what the situation calls for. I don't use the inspire part of perform as often as I probably should since it's usually more practical for me to be casting sorcerer spells during combat.

Anyway...I'm a bit concerned that I won't be able to do all three forms of performing equally anymore, but I guess if I were THAT worried I could spend the extra skill points. I'll have to think about it some more before my group changes over to 3.5.

Right now though, I'm thinking I'll just take one type of perform. It's a tough call...roleplaying the situation vs. getting a heavy bonus to perform checks without spending alot of skill points.

Won't make up my mind for sure until I actually have my 3.5 PH in my hands later this week. (maybe even tonight! Yippeee! )

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

There's absolutely no way to please the kinds of players who like to play Bards-- not all of you, certainly, but not even a majority of you at one time.

I think Bards attract, almost by definition, the kinds of players who like to play outside the boundaries of rules and structure.

Call me a philistine, but give me the simplicity of the Fighter class every time...


Wulf

 

[Sarellion]

I thought about giving the bard a different instrument every five levels in perform, like additional attacks from high BAB. Perhaps I would even include the bonus from the stat (only inherent bonuses), so that more talented people get more instruments.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I've said it in the previous thread on this same topic. The solution?

One Perform skill, all types of performance, and to Hell with realism. There is no justification for D&D attempting to be more "realistic" here than it is everywhere else.

Anyone who would actually have less fun under such a system needs to get less serious.

 

[Shallown]

Okay!
First of all I don't care about the realistic or not realistic aspect of the rules. Since D&D in any form fails almost all test against reality and reality really is a matter of opinion or at least perception and experince.

So Let me address the game "reality" Which includes rules and role-play.

3.5's perform is a rule I can live with except where the Bard is concerned. I mean someone else wants to pick up Perform I don't having to choose one type as being a big issue.

So the Bard is the problem.

Lets look at it this way. he has Bardic Knowledge which means he knows or could know all sorts of crap. So why not have a Bardic perform ability. It could be something like The rangers chosen enemy or any number of other mechanics that show a bard has many performance skills.

Like all perform skills are at 1/2 the bards level plus Cha modifier.
or they gain an additional perform skill equal to half their level every 3 levels
or any number of fixes that fits the Bard and already has president in the Bardic knowledge skill/ability.

You would still max out one or maybe two Performs to use bard abilities and for role playing style.

Just some ideas Not fully developed just a start. Not sure what I will do but It will be one of these or something similiar. It has very little mechanical effect as far as I can see.


Later.

 

[Zhure]

Yeah, that's annoying.
The problem being is that the d20 system just hamstrings everyone with the way skills work anyway.

I would much rather see a Hero System style skill system than the D&D skill pt. system.

My Dwarven Cleric gets a whopping 2 skill points every he time levels. Big whoop! This doesn't even come close to being explained either. I thought many religious types were very educated which is apparently not the case when it comes to D&D Clerics.

~D

Only the smart ones, or the human ones.

 

[JPL]

What bugs me is the traditional basic "performance" you see out of most performer's is a combination of two Perform "skills". Singing while playing a string instrument. Singing and dancing.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. I don't think "most performers" do two things at once. In classical music, or Irish folk, or jazz, I think the rule is just the opposite --- most performers just stand/sit there and play. Most ballet dancers, as far as I know, are not expected to juggle at the same time. Most opera singers don't even own a cowbell.

I also don't think it's necessarily true that every performer in the days of yore had to be a generalist. Among the Irish, the master harper was given great respect, even if he wasn't a great actor. There were certainly folks who sang/chanted and played an instrument, but as is the case today, a musical jack of all trades was usually a master of none.

Even if you want to be really good at two kinds of performance, that still only means putting two points per level into two different Perform skills. That still gives the 3.5 bard more skill points to throw around than the 3.0 bard. The people who have truly mastered even two forms of expression are quite rare.

The idea that EVERY 20th level bard has mastered 23 different types of performance has always rubbed me wrong. Although the 3.5 categories are quite broad, I like them much more than having to strain to come up with more subcategories [let's see...ode, epic, limmerick, sonnet...clog dancing...]

 

[Silver Griffon]

Actually, there's a big difference when I smash your instruments to little bits, and because you decided not to take any Perform (Sing), you lose the ability to use your bardic music.

So... there is a game mechanic difference between the two... you can't use instrument-based Perform without an instrument.

A singer can't sing without his voice... a lutist can't play without his lute... a dancer can't dance when he's paralyzed. These facts in and of themselves convince me to pick more than one type of Peform as a bard... enemies can't easily rob you of your abilities if you spread them about.

Exactly. The game benefit of having multiple styles may only come up on rare occasions, but rare occasions are what being prepared for anything is all about. I had to redo my bard the other day and I was pretty upset at first too. I had already well established the character as a singer and player of the liuquin (chinese mandolin). But then I realized the above and one other thing: the instruments themselves. Sure it seems like the best way to go is singing because you have both hands free (especially since my character is multi-classed with TWF ranger) and don't have to buy an instrument, but then you can't get +2 on Perform checks for a masterwork instrument and forget about using that Lyre of Building until you've leveled up and had to put all your new skill points into one skill. Both styles have their advantages, and my character isn't willing to do without either singing or stringed instruments. (Besides, it took forever to glue those little instruments onto my mini )
Now as far as it being a role playing penalty, if I'm really more interested in role playing then my "flavor" choices are more important than the game mechanics anyway. So I got more skill points in 3.5 and then I had to spend them. Oh well. Besides, I don't want my bard to be the same as every other bard, and with the old perform every bard in a given culture knew pretty much the same types of perform.
If it really bothers you, how about a feat that lets you apply your ranks in Perform to a number of different styles equal to your Cha modifier. Call it Gifted Performer.

 

[bret]

That's like saying all Craft skills should be merged into a single one... after all, beating a piece of metal into a breastplate and beating a piece of metal into a sword are more similar than playing a flute or trumpet.

However, I have to buy Craft (weaponsmithing) and Craft (armorsmithing) separately, but I don't really see any complaints on that being limited. After all, if you want to play a Fighter than maintains his armor and weapons himself (which a good fighter should be able to do), you have to spend up all your skill points and not be able to pick up other things, such as Intimidate, Ride or Jump.

The change is bad for a number of reasons.

Neither the new nor the old system are particularly realistic. That is OK, since the game system really isn't realistic either. Perform with flute and trumpet do help each other, since you (hopefully) develope an ear for music and a sense of rhythm. Since there are a lot of musicians who can't read music, I will not include that as a synergy.

The realism arguement also falls a little flat when you look at the rest of the D20 system. Someone who is an expert armoursmith isn't any good at blacksmith or jewelry? They can't pound out a horseshoe or fix a metal clasp on a ring, but they can make custom fitted full plate?

The D20 skills are mostly broken down by where they give you a game-mechanical advantage. Armorsmith and Weaponsmith are two different skills because they allow you to fix or produce two different types of equipment that are important to characters.

This is not really true of Perform.

The Bard class needs to have a high skill in one type of performance in order to use a class skill. There is no difference in the results between a bard using Perform: Wind Instruments and Perform: String Instruments, they have the same capabilities as far as Bardic Song is concerned.

That isn't to say that a Bard doesn't need more than one type of Perform skill. If the GM includes magical instruments in their campaign (such as lyre of building or pipes of the sewers), the Bard suddenly requires different perform types to use two different magical items. They can use a magical staff (with UMD skill) equally well regardless if it is a staff for a wizard or a wand for a paladin, but if they don't have enough ranks in that type of instrument they can't use it.

I think it was a mistake to make the skill more specialized in the name of realism. D20 isn't a very realistic system, you shouldn't be looking for fine grained skill definition like that. Instead, it should be based on what game-mechanical benefit it is to have it as two separate skills vs. a single skill.