[3.5] Perform -- Does it annoy you as well?

[Fenes 2]

The idea that EVERY 20th level bard has mastered 23 different types of performance has always rubbed me wrong. Although the 3.5 categories are quite broad, I like them much more than having to strain to come up with more subcategories [let's see...ode, epic, limmerick, sonnet...clog dancing...]

Well, no one forces you to choose a new form of performance each time you get a new rank - I know I don't do it with my bard. Under the 3E system I can play a bard that only uses 1 form of performance as well as a more diversified bard, with either being as capable with regards to bardic music.
Under the 3.5E system I can only play a bard with several forms of performance by spending additional skill points, or by taking a hit on max rank for performance.

I think the 3E perform offers more options and fun - why restrict it?

 

[Silver Griffon]

Most opera singers don't even own a cowbell.

But according to Looney Tunes they do all have helmets with little cow horns.

 

[JPL]

Well, no one forces you to choose a new form of performance each time you get a new rank

Well, I don't know what "force" means in this context.

But the 3.0 rules, as written, say that each rank = one new form of performance. Maybe the new rules "force" you to specialize [although two extra skill points per level means that you can truly master three broadly-defined styles of performance and still have skill points aplenty], but the old rules "force" every bard to be a generalist.

 

[Damon Griffin]

I don't have the 3.5 books yet, but from everything I've heard and read regarding Perform, I'd say I'm not going to like the 3.5 version any better than I did the 3.0 version.

Here's one thing I suggested to my group to fix the 3.0 version; none of us were playing Bards, so we never had that much incentive to playtest it, but perhaps this will work for some of you:

Under Perform v3.0, every added rank in the skill not only improved your existing performance style(s) but also gave you a new performance style at that same, improved skill level. So, ignoring CHA bonus, masterwork instrument bonus, etc. a 1st level Bard could spend the maximum allowable 4 points to have 4 performance types all at skill level 4, and by the time he's 10th level, he may know 13 performance types, all at skill level 13 (again, not counting his CHA or other bonuses.)

Note the geometric progression of virtual ranks gained by the above system. Spending 4 skill points effectively buys you 16 ranks, because you get 4 ranks in each of 4 different styles. Spending 10 points effectively buys you 100 ranks, because you get that level of skill in 10 different styles.

This seems silly, especially as it was possible (although more expensive) for non-Bards to achieve the same effect. So here's what I suggested:

* Spending 1 skill point on Perform buys you 4 "pips" in Perform.
* One "pip" can be used to either buy a new style or improve one existing style, not both.
* The restrictions on max ranks (character level +3) also apply to pips.

So, the 1st level Bard uses 4 skill points to buy 16 pips of Perform, and allots them as follows:

Singing(ballad) @ rank 4 (max. for a 1st level character)
Lute @ rank 4
Mandolin @ rank 2
Dance(jigs & reels) @ rank 2
Panpipes @ rank 2
Oratory(storytelling) @ rank 1
Juggling @ rank 1

This is nice because the character isn't automatically equally good at everything; he can specialize in a couple of areas and dabble in others. The character will still periodically be "forced" to take on new performance styles as his pip total exceeds his max. ranks in each style (the 1st level character above could have chosen to take three of the above styles at rank 4, but could not have chosen to take two at rank 6), but will not automatically get a new one every time he spends one more skill point on Perform.

By the time this character reaches 10th level, and has bought 13 ranks (52 pips) in Perform, he might have:

Singing(ballad) @ rank 10
Singing(chant) @ rank 2
Lute @ rank 7
Mandolin @ rank 6
Dance(jigs & reels) @ rank 5
Dance(waltz) @ rank 2
Panpipes @ rank 5
Oratory(storytelling) @ rank 5
Juggling @ rank 4
Acting(comedy) @ rank 3
Acting(tragedy) @ rank 3

If 52 pips sounds like a lot, remember that Perform v3.0 effectively gives the same character 169 pips, by giving him 13 ranks in each of 13 different performance styles.

If 52 doesn't sound like enough for a 10th level Bard, just raise the number or pips per Perform skill point to 5 (or 6, or whatever you think best.) Obviously, the higher this number is, the more often a character will be "forced" to take on new styles in order to be able to use the increased number of pips.

It may be tempting to give Bards a better exchange rate: say, give Bards 6 pips per skill point spent on Perform, and non-Bards only 3 pips. This is not necessary, since Perform is a cross-class skill for most non-Bards, making ranks (and therefore pips) twice as expensive for non-Bards already.

[That last paragraph assumes that cross-class skills work the same way under v3.5 as they did under v3.0, and I don't know if that's true.]

This system also assumes that you are using a fairly detailed breakdown of styles; simply adjust the number of pips per skill point to your taste, and it will work if you treat each stringed instrument, for example, as a separate performance style (synergy bonuses from other stringed instruments would be okay), but it probably won't work well if you use broad categories such as those listed in v3.5.

 

[Steverooo]

Part of the Problem: Corrections or Redefinitions!

PART of the Bard's problems is that "Bardic Music" is a misnomer (or if it's not, then you can't perform "Bardic Music" via chanting, poetry, etc). Thus, the term needs to be re-defined, and/or renamed...

Also, as (someone) pointed out, above, you can only use "Bardic Music" when/if the folks you're using it on can HEAR you. Thus, Dance & Mime (while they may be forms of Performance) can't be used for "Bardic Music", anyway.

And Acting? Re-read the 3e skill description for Bluff. There was already a skill for Acting, before Perform. Such things as Drama (Comedy, Tragedy), should go here.

Juggling should also be removed from Perform. It belongs under Sleight of Hand.

Yes, these are all just My Opinions, but here's how I'd fix Bardic Music, Perform... (and a lot of other things)!

First of all, "Bardic Music" would have to be done with MUSIC, where that gets re-defined as sound with rhythm. As such, Acting, Dance, Mime, etc., get thrown out. Your Performer can learn them, if they like, but they won't be using them to "cast Bardic Music." They will be able to Chant, use Poetry, Sing, play an instrument and (although it irks me to stretch it so far) even use percussion...

(Behind the Veil: Just like any other form of Spellcasting, the Bard faces Verbal, Somatic, and/or Material components. They can cast Verbal-only spells (Poetry, Singing, Chanting), or non-verbal Somatic-and-Material (Play the Harp, flute, lute), but suffer the same Silence restrictions as other spellcasters, etc.)

SUMMARY:

1) Bardic Music can only be performed with a sonic delivery. Non-sonic forms of Perform cannot be used to deliver Bardic Music. Perform (Dance, Mime), etc., may still be taken, but not used for Bardic Music (just for earning coin).

2) Acting is re-moved to Bluff. Bards can still take Perform (Acting), but it cannot be used for Bardic Music, nor does it convey Bluff abilities. (Take Bluff, instead!)

3) Juggling is removed from Perform altogether, and placed into the DEX-based Sleight of Hand skill. Bardic Music may never be done with Juggling!

Okay, now to the Perform skill fix... Slightly klunky, but with applications elsewhere, and (IMHO) it makes things better all around, and 3.5e characters less idiotic.

1) Perform is now a "Cascade Skill". This means that, each time a Rank of Perform is purchased, a number of Skill Points equal to the Ranks of Perform is added to the previous total... (Huh?)

It goes like this: A first-level Bard with the maximum four Skill Ranks in Perform has 10 Skill Points in Perform to spend (1+2+3+4=10).

2) Each Perform Cascade Skill Point MUST BE SPENT ON A SPECIFIC SUBSKILL. The first level Bard, for instance, could take Perform Sing (4), Harp (4), Flute (2). At the next level, if they put one more Skill Point into Perform (keeping it maxed out), then they would have five Ranks of Perform, and gain an additional FIVE Cascade Skill Points. They could then add one more (each) to Sing and Harp, and put the other three into Flute (thus having all three at their Max. Skill Rank of five), or all three into Poetry (having Sing (5), Harp (5), Flute (2), Poetry (3)).

3) No Synergy Bonuses. If you want to play an instrument, buy that instrument. You'll have enough points!

4) The more skilled you get, the easier it is to pick up another instrument, but the more you have, the less skilled you'll be with each.

5) You can still "waste" a few Ranks on Dance, Mime, etc., if you wish. You can't use them for Bardic Music, but so what? You can now afford it.

6) I leave the ajudication of Perform (Comedy, et al) to the GM... It doesn't fit my definition of "Bardic Music", but then again, neither does Perform (Oratory) or Perform (Drums). Handle it as you see fit.

7) In all cases, Cascade Sub-skill Ranks are always limited by Max. Skill Ranks, like any other skill.

==================

Other Cascade Skills:

I believe that all of the skills with sub-skills should be handled the same way (YMMV). Namely, Craft, Knowledge, and Profession.

I think it hurts the game very little to have characters being able to get jobs in various Professions, capable of fixing various things, and knowledgeable in many areas (particularly when MOST PCs are hampered by MOST Knowledge skills being Cross-Class for them).

IMHO, PCs who adventure on the Astral Plane should be able to afford some Knowledge (Planes) when they get back. Fighters should have Knowledge (History) to cover the ancient battles and tactics they're always talking about...

With cascade skills, even if Knowledge or a Profession is Cross-Class, a PC can, in a few levels, max out Skill Ranks in ONE sub-skill, or quickly pick up a smattering in a few!

Carft/Knowledge/Perform/Profession
Cascade Skill Ranks   Skill Points
 1    1
 2    3
 3    6
 4   10
 5   15
 6   21
 7   28
 8   36
 9   45
10   55

 

[Fenes 2]

Well, I don't know what "force" means in this context.

But the 3.0 rules, as written, say that each rank = one new form of performance. Maybe the new rules "force" you to specialize [although two extra skill points per level means that you can truly master three broadly-defined styles of performance and still have skill points aplenty], but the old rules "force" every bard to be a generalist.

No one forces you to choose all possible forms for each rank. I can make a bard and just state that he can only dance and sing, and nothing else, under the 3E rules. I don't have to pick 23 forms of perform if I do not want to. That is what I mean when I say that no one forces me or you to pick all thopse forms of performance.
Just because you can does not mean you have to.

 

[Mallus]

Whatever else you can say about the new Perform, it's much more realistic this way.

But is anything gained by this increased realism? Realism in RPG's, like in film and fiction, is a means to an end, not an end itself.

I'm not going to clutter my game up with a big list of Perform synergies --if I don't do this for the various unlike weapons groupings, I'm certainly not going to sweat singing and dancing. The 3E Perform mechanic is fine for me.

I really don't get the designers intention w/this change....

 

[Arnwyn]

The 3.5 change is far superior, IMO - in fact, it is pretty much the same thing that I house-ruled to three years ago when I saw the idiotic (again, IMO) 3.0 version of Perform. *And* I didn't give the bard any extra skill points.

 

[JPL]

No one forces you to choose all possible forms for each rank. I can make a bard and just state that he can only dance and sing, and nothing else, under the 3E rules. I don't have to pick 23 forms of perform if I do not want to. That is what I mean when I say that no one forces me or you to pick all thopse forms of performance.
Just because you can does not mean you have to.

I guess what I'm saying is that no one but your DM can "force" you to do anything, but I believe the rule in 3.0 that each rank equals a new instrument or medium is not intended as discretionary.

If a player decided that his fighter's martial weapon proficiency only applied to swords, and insisted on taking a -4 when he used a bow, I guess nothing in the rules "forces" him to be bow-proficient. If a player decided that his rogue only gets 6 skill points per level because he's lazy, I guess nothing "forces" him to spend all his skill points.

Really, use whatever works for you, and more power to you. I'm chiming in just because I don't want anyone walking away from a thread like this saying, "Everyone hates ___. It's so obviously wrong. 3.5 sucks."

The revised Perform is actually one of my favorite changes --- as a working musician [though I'm not working much lately], I find it much more satisfying to put some thought into what kind of performer I'm playing and have it matter. A drummer, a poet, a dancer, and a harpist are very different character concepts, to me. The preferred medium of expression should not be an afterthought --- in many cases, it should be at the core of the character. Mastery of a new instrument should not be as easy as spending one more skill point --- I want it to really mean something.

 

[Voadam]

I like the new version.

It makes it similar to gaining various profession or knowledge skills. It is more in line with the rest of the skill system and is one less exception to the normal rules.

Old bards converting can master three forms and not lose any skill points.

I like that my loremaster only develops his oratory, and not other things.