D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 revisions caused by prestige classes?

[Marshall]

1) You can't fix a prestige class you didn't make.

Then its up to the DM running the game to note that the PrC is outside the acceptable scope of the game. Just because a 3rd party makes something that breaks the rules doesn't mean you go change the rules.

2) There are far, far more prestige classes than there are rules loopholes for them to exploit.

What loophole? The changes to 3.5 nerfed a lot of reasonable to weak options while leaving most of the really abusive loopholes in place.
On the subject of spell DC's, Spell Power was causing 90%+ of the problem, GSF a small percantage and SCP even less. The answer was to nerf Spell Power, OK done. But they didn't stop there, they went on and nerfed GSF, and then SCP and then bombed SF! Making change after change that did nothing other than further reduce the effectiveness of already weak options.

All the while leaving the really abusive stuff like Gate and Mords Disjunction alone....

 

[Pax]

I doubt that anyone can cofirm it, in the sense that they are a WotC "insider," but I do think you are right. A lot of abilities from PrC had ramifications that the designers did not intends, such as a 9-20 Crit range from a Weapon Master with Improve Crit feat and a Keen Weapon.

And you know what's funny? I can still get that sort of threat range! 3.5 rules, by the book, breakinb nothing. In fact, I can get BETTER:

Fighter(5)/Disciple of Dispater(8)/Weaponmaster(7), with a Cold Iron scimitar (yes, the material in question is required for this to work). The DoD gets an ability which triples the threat range for any iron weapon he wields - and the ability specifically states that it stacks with the Improved Critical feat; the two of them together would thus quadruple the threat range of the specified weapon, provided it was made of iron (hence the choice of cold iron, above).

And you then take that very feat - because the "ki critical" ability of the Weapon Master is then worth an additional +2 to your threat range!

So ... Improved Critical and DoD(8) means you get quadruple the base threat range; scimitars start out at [18-20]; quadruple that is [9-11][12-14][15-17][18-20] ... or more simply, [9-20]. Widen that by two, and that's a threat range of [7-20] ... !! How's that for some mud in Andy Collins' eye ... ? HEH!

The only trick is, you hae to be extremely evil, and your GM has to allow you to make use of the Book of Vile Deeds, as well as taking the Disciple of Dispater prestige class. ^_^

 

[reiella]

And you know what's funny? I can still get that sort of threat range! 3.5 rules, by the book, breakinb nothing. In fact, I can get BETTER:
Trimmed
The only trick is, you hae to be extremely evil, and your GM has to allow you to make use of the Book of Vile Deeds, as well as taking the Disciple of Dispater prestige class. ^_^

Slight problem here is that BoVD is actually a 3.0 book, and unforunately so, one that isn't addressed by the 3.5 Update Booklet.

Hmm going to check the larger update document.

Further, the extrapolation that it works 'without adjustment' in 3.5 is a bit question, as the description of Iron Power states that it stacks with Improved Critical but not Keen effects. And the change where keen did not stack with Improved Critical was the one that directly addressed this one.

Further, Weapon Master is also a 3.0 class. And the 3.5 Kensai is not akin to the OA Kensai (ie, the Weapon master).

So instead, the trick to getting the huge threat range in 3.5, is to use 3.0 rules .

 

[Merlion]

What loophole? The changes to 3.5 nerfed a lot of reasonable to weak options while leaving most of the really abusive loopholes in place.
On the subject of spell DC's, Spell Power was causing 90%+ of the problem, GSF a small percantage and SCP even less. The answer was to nerf Spell Power, OK done. But they didn't stop there, they went on and nerfed GSF, and then SCP and then bombed SF! Making change after change that did nothing other than further reduce the effectiveness of already weak options.
All the while leaving the really abusive stuff like Gate and Mords Disjunction alone....

I agree with this very strongly. Several of the changes were uneccsary, badly handled, or both with the Spell Focus thing being a prime example. Making GSF add +1 instead of +2, and saying that an Archmage can only take Spell Power say, twice, would have fixed that nicely. But instead, two of the only feats in core that actualy enhance spellcasting are now neccsary but somewhat poor choices, and the whole concept of spell dc increase from other sources has been more or less outlawed.
And then we have the wholesale attack on the idea of using magic for anything other than combat in 3.5
Why did they even make Archmage core if it was unbalanced? If the problems were coming from outside core...so what? what concern of WOTCs is that? Its up to the individual DMs to decide what to allow in their campaigns or not. I agree that changing the core rules because of problems from other sources is silly.
As near as I can tell, the reason behind the revision...for the people really in charge at Hasbro/WoTC was of course money. First, they want DnD to be more like Magic. People buy magic continiously, because you have to keep up with the current series if you want to play in tournaments etc, and new sets come out every few months. The acceleration of new editions of DnD is I think largely just a way to try and emulate this. Normaly, you but your few DnD books, and your set, and dont have to worry about a new edition for many years. They seem to want to change that.
The second thing is, they seem to be aiming towards a younger audience, and more and more to the computer game crowd...hence, more and more focus on combat, nerfing of utility spells, ephasis on minis etc etc.
Those I think are the real reasons.

 

[hong]

Then its up to the DM running the game to note that the PrC is outside the acceptable scope of the game. Just because a 3rd party makes something that breaks the rules doesn't mean you go change the rules.

Yes, Marshall.

What loophole? The changes to 3.5 nerfed a lot of reasonable to weak options while leaving most of the really abusive loopholes in place.
On the subject of spell DC's, Spell Power was causing 90%+ of the problem, GSF a small percantage and SCP even less. The answer was to nerf Spell Power, OK done. But they didn't stop there, they went on and nerfed GSF, and then SCP and then bombed SF! Making change after change that did nothing other than further reduce the effectiveness of already weak options.

All the while leaving the really abusive stuff like Gate and Mords Disjunction alone....

Yes, Marshall.

 

[hong]

And you know what's funny? I can still get that sort of threat range! 3.5 rules, by the book, breakinb nothing.

Yes, Pax.

 

[Marshall]

Yes, Marshall.


Yes, Marshall.

See how easy it is? You dont even have to think. I handle all of that for you...

 

[Pax]

Further, the extrapolation that it works 'without adjustment' in 3.5 is a bit question, as the description of Iron Power states that it stacks with Improved Critical but not Keen effects. And the change where keen did not stack with Improved Critical was the one that directly addressed this one.

Until there's an update, there's no reason to suspect it wouldn't continue to work just fine. And even if it DODN'T stack - fine, so, triple threat range and +2 form Weapon Master, that's still a 10-20 threat range. ^_^

Further, Weapon Master is also a 3.0 class. And the 3.5 Kensai is not akin to the OA Kensai (ie, the Weapon master).

And Andy Collins himself, when asked specifically about the Weapon Master, said "until it's updated, it should be justf ine to use it as-is".

So instead, the trick to getting the huge threat range in 3.5, is to use 3.0 rules .

No, it's to use 3.5-compatible rules from various sources.

 

[reiella]

Until there's an update, there's no reason to suspect it wouldn't continue to work just fine. And even if it DODN'T stack - fine, so, triple threat range and +2 form Weapon Master, that's still a 10-20 threat range. ^_^


And Andy Collins himself, when asked specifically about the Weapon Master, said "until it's updated, it should be justf ine to use it as-is".


No, it's to use 3.5-compatible rules from various sources.

Which kinda defeats the purpose of this discussion then.

As all 3.0 books are considered 3.0-compatible. At least that's what I recall during the hype before release from WotC.

Effects/features with duplictious names are also kinda irrelevant, as they exist even with the smaller "Explicitly 3.5" book-set from WotC..

Any event, I just disagree with your presumption that it's possible with 3.5 rules, and feel that your example really only emphasizes the point that there were rule changes and design theory changes to affect certain PrC combinations in 3.5.

Anycase, so'k if we disagree , just wanted to point out that those weren't exactly 3.5 era-rules, but 3.0-era rules; and that those combinations may well be in part the reason for the revision to the 3.5 Improved Critical/Keen Weapon.

 

[Pax]

Riella, notice I said to use 3.5 compatible rules, not 3.0 compatible.

Effects/features with duplictious names are also kinda irrelevant, as they exist even with the smaller "Explicitly 3.5" book-set from WotC.

Duplicitous names? What ability have I cited, which has a "duplicitous name" ... ?

Any event, I just disagree with your presumption that it's possible with 3.5 rules, and feel that your example really only emphasizes the point that there were rule changes and design theory changes to affect certain PrC combinations in 3.5.

... except that Andy Collins, the instigator of the very selfsame (IMO silly and unneccessary) "keen and improved critical don't stack" rule, has said, in as many words, that where a 3.0 prestige class ability is compatible as written with 3.5 rules, then it should "probably" be allowed to stand as-is.

And mind you, that comment was made directly in response to questions about how to handle the Weapon Master in light of that changed threat-range-expansion rule.

Plus I've shown that, even WITHOUT stacking the feat and the Disciple ability, you can (same class spread and feat selection) still get a 10-20 threat range.

And I daresay, no, the Disciple wasn't the reason for the change. The reason was (as Andy himself has said), nor was it the Weapon master's ability (since Andy has also said that ability shoudl work as written in a 3.5 game). The "problem" was the ready stacking of Keen weapons with matching Improved Critical feats, on (say) a scimitar ... giving anyone a threat range of 15-20, or any weapon master a range of 13-20, for a piddly-small investment of gold and feats.