D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Sleep = full round action!

[Zhure]

PC: "Ok, the barbarian's knocked the guard unconscious. I'll make sure he doesn't wake up with a sleep spell. Good thing I memorized one."

DM: "You mean 'prepared.'"

PC: "What?"

DM: "Spells are prepared, not memorized."

PC: "Ok, sure. At least I can accomplish something."

DM: "Actually, Sleep doesn't work on unconscious targets."

PC: "Fine. I coup de grace the guard by choking him."

DM: "Since you don't have IUS, it's subdual only damage unless you take a -4."

PC: "ARGH"

 

[Nail]

From the SRD. Compare to Sleep. This is a 3rd level spell????

Deep Slumber
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

This spell functions like sleep, except that it affects 10 HD of creatures.

...then after looking that up, you have to page forward to the sleep spell.......

I smell a "hack" here in this section.

"Oh crap, we forgot to fix sleep, and the book's going to the printers tomorrow........"

 

[Nail]

DM: "Actually, Sleep doesn't work on unconscious targets."

PC: "Fine. I coup de grace the guard by choking him."

DM: "Since you don't have IUS, it's subdual only damage unless you take a -4."

PC: "ARGH"

Garmphffff!!!!!! Heh, heh. Well, my monitor's had Coke sprayed over it before.....

 

[ForceUser]

They've done their best in 3.5 to limit the scalability of most 1st level combat spells - except for magic missle, of course. God forbid you nerf the sacred cow of gaming while the enchanter struggles to pull off a full-round sleep spell that allows a save.

By 3rd level the new sleep is useless. Magic missle, meanwhile, still sees use all the time in the 14th level campaign I play in.

This was a stupid nerf.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Can you imagine a 4th edition Sleep spell?

It will be something like this:

Sleep.

Casting time 2 full rounds
Target 1 creature of up to 1HD
Saving Throw Will or Fort or Reflex (target chooses).

The target falls into a light sleep, but is instantly disturbed by any noise as loud as someone walking up to him. He is not considered helpless.

- actually, probably better bump it up to 2nd level. Don't want it to be too powerful...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well, the old sleep was a save-or-die spell, no matter the HD limits. Even with only one 1HD target, it would remain a save-or-die spell, and quite powerful at 1st level. They couldn't really change the effect of the spell (sleep), so they changed the casting time (they went a different way with the hold spells). They could have let the 2d4 alone, but other than that, it's OK IMO. And it's still subject to quicken, isn't it?

Of course, on higher levels it will become an "unitilty spell" to be used on shopkeeps, clerks, secretaries and the like, but that was true before.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It wasn't save or die, it was "save or potentially CDG fodder", but if you were facing 5 or more enemies it was highly likely that the slept ones could be woken again before they were killed.

It allowed the killing of a pair of orcs (but even that wasn't guaranteed like the old days, since they got a save now), but it would be using, what, 50% of the 1st level wizards available resources?

In any dungeon adventure situation with multiple encounters, how did allowing the wizards spell affect the outcome of a single battle matter so much?

 

[Nail]

They've done their best in 3.5 to limit the scalability of most 1st level combat spells - except for magic missle, of course. God forbid you nerf the sacred cow of gaming while the enchanter struggles to pull off a full-round sleep spell that allows a save.

Yup.

Thing is, there are other spells to compare it to, and even this was not done. Color Spray is an excellent example of this. Even the 0th level Daze is in the ball-park........

I've also noticed the "limited scaling" of first level spells. For the most part, that's wasted effort. The save DCs and AoE of 1st level spells are small to begin with...the lack of scaling only makes these 1st level spells useless at high level.

Moreover, they now, all of them, make lousy potions. If you look throught the wiz list, for example, you find only a handful in 3.5e that can be made into potions at all. This is not a good change......

"It's a potion? Oh, then it must be Cure Light Wounds. No one would be so stupid to make any other potion....not enough bang for the buck in 3.5e."

 

[Malicene]

Can you imagine a 4th edition Sleep spell?

It will be something like this:

Sleep.

Casting time 2 full rounds
Target 1 creature of up to 1HD
Saving Throw Will or Fort or Reflex (target chooses).

The target falls into a light sleep, but is instantly disturbed by any noise as loud as someone walking up to him. He is not considered helpless.

- actually, probably better bump it up to 2nd level. Don't want it to be too powerful...

Haha little nemo is not gonna buy the 4th

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

I agree with PlaneSailing and the others - this is a case where the thing wasn't broken.

Was it a "must have" at low level? Well, considering I'm been running D&D off and on for over 15 years I've seen the spell cast less than a dozen time (over half being NPC attempts to take out one particular bard in one patricular campaign), I'm not so sure. Yes, it meant Mr 1st level Magic User could take out one encounter - using up 100% of his resources for the day doing so.

It could have been scaled to make it effective at high levels while keeping control of its power. To top it off they didn't nerf Magic Missile (another way of "ending" a combat at 1st level - by killing the creature!), and they broke their own inane naming conventions for spells with Deep Slumber.

I'd lift the fixed HD cap, put it at one creature per level. If DMs are really so scared of it I have a simple solution - use more sleep-resistant enemies: constructs, plants, oozes, outsiders/elementals, undead, hell, just use a band of 1st level elf commoners!

- Ma'at