D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Spell Focus gives only +1 to DCs

[Elder-Basilisk]

Which is why the optimized wizard needs to cast 3 dismissals to have a better than 50/50 chance of getting rid of an outsider like an Ossyluth? How much more optimal are spells supposed to get than Dismissal against an equal CR outsider?

if you design DCs so that sub-optimal spells still have a good chance of working, the optimal ones will be impossible to resist.

 

[mmu1]

Which is why the optimized wizard needs to cast 3 dismissals to have a better than 50/50 chance of getting rid of an outsider like an Ossyluth? How much more optimal are spells supposed to get than Dismissal against an equal CR outsider?

Considering that a character going up against a monster with equal CR should have, on average (assuming CRs are more or less equivalent) a 50% chance of dying (it's actually a lot worse than that for non-casters...) I don't think that's too bad. Those 3 dismissals aren't even 25% of the wizard's resources, never mind the party's.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I can't wait to see these discussions on the other CR 9 3.5 monsters, especially the ones that don't have SR.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The last thing I want to happen is for "normal" (ie, non min/maxed) casters to become obsolete against equivalent challenges because they don't have the right PrC or good enough stat boosts or shell out major cash and/or xp for Wishes, etc. The previous incarnation of Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus allowed the player who wasn't obsessed about every little number to keep his spellcaster a force on the battlefield. Unless there have been some other dramatic changes to the way Spell DC's are calculated that we aren't aware of, the concept of the non-tweaked spellcaster will become a non-entity.

Is that really the direction we want to go in?

It is not that bad.

Having played a "normal" wizard in 3e, I find I mostly just sit back casting buffs on my teammates. I don't even bother Hasting myself anymore -- IME other PCs make better use of the extra action. I would be surprised if more than 25% of my spells cast were offensive, and that is counting my Wand of Magic Missiles (which I use if it takes me more than 5 seconds to figure out what to do when my turn is up).

In feel, I am more a weird cleric variant than some kind of intimidating offensive threat. Buffing others is my life; it is their job to kill things. Heck, the cleric has Flame Strike, Greater Command, Holy Smite, and Sound Burst -- those spells stack up just fine against my Fireballs & Confusion. On the plus side, the Wall of Force I keep handy is irreplaceable when things go badly, and the meatshields are genuinely grateful for the occasional Stoneskin.

I am not griping. I am not really minmaxed for offense, but still more than carry my weight. I am very happy with my character, although I suspect the style of play isn't for everyone. But I must ask...

Is that really the direction we want to go in?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Considering that a character going up against a monster with equal CR should have, on average (assuming CRs are more or less equivalent) a 50% chance of dying (it's actually a lot worse than that for non-casters...) I don't think that's too bad. Those 3 dismissals aren't even 25% of the wizard's resources, never mind the party's.

If the wizard preps a narrowly tailored spell to deal with a specific kind of threat, you are darn tooting I expect he can handle it with very minimal resources expended.

What about those wizards who did not prep Dismissal? What they be expected to expend? 100% of their resources? 200%?

 

[Metalsmith]

Greater Focus helped drive the DCs back into the "50/50-ish" ranges again. Dropping it back to +2 ... would revive those PBATs all over. 8P

Comming soon to Stores. DnD 3.5 or as I like to call it, the "Real Men use Swords." Edition.

Anyone see the new Exaustion Spells? What a waste!

Metalsmith

 

[Metalsmith]

It is not that bad.

Having played a "normal" wizard in 3e

I am more a weird cleric variant than some kind of intimidating offensive threat.

Sorry but you're not making much sense.

Either you feel you are "Normal Wizard" or you Feel you are a "Wierd Cleric Variant". You can't be both.

Metalsmith

 

[Ravellion]

Good Riddance I say!

Int 26 Wizard at 20th level (starting Int of 15!), using a will save spell agaisnt a fighter with a cloak of resistance +5, Iron WIll and 12 WIS.

Wizards DC 27. Fighter save +11. Needs a 16 to make it.

Same schmoe of a wizard with Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus, 3.0 style: Fighter stands no chance, can only save on a 20, even though he invested heavily in save boosting. With the new Spell Focus being +1 and +2, his chances go up by 300%.

Fort Save: +17... Now there we have a 50/50 chance without the focus feats. Witht hem, we suddenly get a 30% chance for your good save! perhaps a bit higher due to good con, but 40% chance then perhaps?

This problem isn't just true at high level either. It is throighout the levels taht thios problem persists: Hurrah for Sp & GSF to be nerfed. Normal Wizards will still be effective, and maxed wizards won't be invincible.

 

[Ravellion]

Also, I think that using an osyluth is a bad example. Might as well use a Magic Immune golem and claim that wizards are underpowered. Most creatures you fight at that level are not that resistant to spells. If you find they are, your DM is just using those creatures constantly for a reason... because normal challenges get their arse handed to them with a flick of the wizard's wrist perhaps?

Rav

 

[Kalanyr]

Rav: Give the wizard SF and Greater SF (Enchantment/Illusion) since its a will spell and not give the saving maxing fighter at least Iron Will ? SF and GSF represent 2/12 of a 20th level human Wizards feats, Iron Will makes up 1/19 of a 20th level human fighters feats. Not to mention FIGHTERS ARE SUPPOSED TO FAIL WILL SAVES when in equal circumstances (save buffing vs spell DC buffing) more than 50/50. One of the first articles in Dragon after 3e came out suggested a good save should be made slightly more often than 50/50 and a bad save around 33% of the time.