D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Spells - Far Weaker?

[KarinsDad]

Anyhow, I could go on and on and I won't. I'm simply hoping to high hell that 4th edition uses 3rd edition as its basis and not 3.5.

I think the way to help 4E not become as problematic is to gradually send your issues to both the Sage and to Customer Support.

I suspect that most games in the world are played at lower to mid levels and many of your concerns here are for the higher level spells.

I do not think the higher level spells get the amount of attention as the lower level spells because they do not come into game play as often.


For example, many threads started here on the rules forum get started because somebody encounters something unusual in their game. Since many of the higher level spells tend to not get used in many games (and not only because of the greater frequency of lower level games, but also because at 17th level, you have over 50 spells you have to pick that day and hence there's more legwork and a tendency for some people to find something nice and stick to it), I doubt even Customer Service is getting that many Emails about this.


I also think that some of the spells you mentioned might have got nerfed between 3E and 3.5 because someone sent an Email to the Sage or Customer Service with an example of a scenario where it was overpowered.

 

[Testament]

*Disintegrate is crap.

Yeah, because 2d6 per caster level with bodily destruction at 0 is crap. And as Merric pointed out, if you have ranged SoD at 6th, where do you go for 7th, 8th and 9th?

*Arcane spells like Horrid wilting must now "adhere" to a d6 but divine spells like "holy smite" can stay a d8.

With slower tiering, except against specific enemies, that Clerics SHOULD be good at smiting.

*Arcane spells must "adhere" to the damage caps listed in the DMG but we'll tacitly ignore the druid's flamestrike, and make "harm" d20/level - because that's what it is effectively in 3.5.

WTF? Where are you pulling d20/level from? I'm seeing 10 per level.

*The druid "absorbed" a good chunk of the arcane spell list. Rumor has it the "designer's" wife plays druids.

You know, this could almost be considered libelous.

*Plenty arcane spells rose in level, plenty divine droped in level. No reason really. Dude just felt that druids needed ice-storm at the same level as wizards.

Because everyone knows that Druids can't control the weather. No sireee.

*Conjurations now "mysteriously" have in large part no SR. This leads to most conjurations being significantly better than evocations at doing you know, damage. It's a paradigm shift, and a bad one. Only in 3.5 can a wand of melf's acid arrow kill an iron golem.

Why should SR be involved when the magic has already done its work? I conjure the acid, then I propel it. Your immunity to magic plays no part because no magic is being used.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yeah, because 2d6 per caster level with bodily destruction at 0 is crap. And as Merric pointed out, if you have ranged SoD at 6th, where do you go for 7th, 8th and 9th?

It is. It's 2d6 per level if they fail and 5d6 flat if they succeed. To give you a comparison 3.5 Harm does 50-75 minimum damage. At level 15 it does 150 damage. Even at level 20 as a wizard you will do an average 140 damage if they fail. If they save half the time you're doing on average (140 + 17.5)/2 = 78 damage, or basically the mimimum that harm does for a caster 5 levels lower than you. You basically require metamagic rods to make it worthwhile, and by that point it's debatable whether those rods are better spent elsewhere.

6th level:
disintegrate, medium range, ranged touch attack roll, save. Fixed by 7th level magic (resurrection). Affects almost everything.
flesh to stone, medium range, no attack roll, save. Fixed by 5th level magic (break enchantment. Living targets only.
7th level:
finger of death, close range, no attack roll, save. Fixed by 7th level magic. Living targets only.
9th level:
imprisonment, mellee touch attack, no save. Fixed by 9th level magic. Affects almost everything.
wail of the banshee, no attack roll, multiple targets in an area, save. Fixed by 7th level magic. Living targets only.

This is very simple irrefutable game mechanics. There are "better" spells than disintegrate beyond 6th level in 3rd edition.
It's 100% clear that 3.5 spells were re-designed with a lack of insight. I'll never forget when I asked the guy "did you fix the finger of death / destruction imbalance?" and the reply was "well they're both sorta bad". That was my first clue things were going to pot in 3.5.

With slower tiering, except against specific enemies, that Clerics SHOULD be good at smiting.

The searing light. Clerics should have the higher die for searing light I presume as well? Burn them celestials!

WTF? Where are you pulling d20/level from? I'm seeing 10 per level.

It's effectively d20 per level. The average roll on a d20 is 10. The spell does effectively d20 per level. The only difference is metamagic, but for all other purposes it's way off scale in terms of damage for divine casters.

Because everyone knows that Druids can't control the weather. No sireee.

They can. With twice the radius of any other caster to boot. Ice storm isn't weather.

Why should SR be involved when the magic has already done its work? I conjure the acid, then I propel it. Your immunity to magic plays no part because no magic is being used.

This is, again, a very very bad way to design spells . I conjure the fireball bead, then make it explode, your immunity to magic plays no part because no magic is being used.
See the problem?

 

[FireLance]

The searing light. Clerics should have the higher die for searing light I presume as well? Burn them celestials!

Sorry, I don't get your point. Searing light deals 1d8/level max 10d8 against undead creatures vulnerable to sunlight, or 1d6/level max 10d6 against other undead creatures. Otherwise, it deals 1d8/2 levels max 5d8 against normal creatures and 1d6/2 levels max 5d6 against constructs and inanimate objects.

EDIT: Oh, and the damage for holy smite, alluded to in the previous post, is actually 1d6/level max 10d6 for evil outsiders, 1d8/2 levels max 5d8 for other evil creatures, and half that for neutral creatures.

This is, again, a very very bad way to design spells . I conjure the fireball bead, then make it explode, your immunity to magic plays no part because no magic is being used.
See the problem?

Actually, no. I personally like it that wizards have a fairly reliable way to damage spell resistant opponents, and I think it makes a nice niche for the Conjuration school. Of course, in order to balance it with a similar spell from the Evocation school, the Conjuration spell should (a) deal less damage than a Evocation spell of the same level, or (b) be higher level than an Evocation spell that deals the same amount of damage, or (c) affect only one target, if an Evocation spell of the same level can deal the same amount of damage to multiple targets.

Of course, if you don't like wizards in your campaigns to have a reliable way to damage to damage spell resistant opponents, I can see why you might consider it a very very bad way to design spells.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You know, this could almost be considered libelous.

Was there any doubt this would turn into a whiny 3.5-bashing thread with lots of insults? I'm not surprised.

 

[Testament]

It is. It's 2d6 per level if they fail and 5d6 flat if they succeed. To give you a comparison 3.5 Harm does 50-75 minimum damage. At level 15 it does 150 damage. Even at level 20 as a wizard you will do an average 140 damage if they fail. If they save half the time you're doing on average (140 + 17.5)/2 = 78 damage, or basically the mimimum that harm does for a caster 5 levels lower than you. You basically require metamagic rods to make it worthwhile, and by that point it's debatable whether those rods are better spent elsewhere.

6th level:
disintegrate, medium range, ranged touch attack roll, save. Fixed by 7th level magic (resurrection). Affects almost everything.
flesh to stone, medium range, no attack roll, save. Fixed by 5th level magic (break enchantment. Living targets only.
7th level:
finger of death, close range, no attack roll, save. Fixed by 7th level magic. Living targets only.
9th level:
imprisonment, mellee touch attack, no save. Fixed by 9th level magic. Affects almost everything.
wail of the banshee, no attack roll, multiple targets in an area, save. Fixed by 7th level magic. Living targets only.

This is very simple irrefutable game mechanics. There are "better" spells than disintegrate beyond 6th level in 3rd edition.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that on that list, Finger of Death is inferior to disintegrate, its shorter range and only affects living targets. Ranged touch attacks are, 90% of the time, don't roll a one. Disintegrate is still a scary spell, now it fits better in the progression of uber-killy magic.

It's effectively d20 per level. The average roll on a d20 is 10. The spell does effectively d20 per level. The only difference is metamagic, but for all other purposes it's way off scale in terms of damage for divine casters.

Because Harm's 3.0 incarnation was SOOOOO much better balanced, wasn't it? Doing upwards of 500 damage, no save, was just SO balanced, wasn't it?

Ice storm isn't weather.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where giant hailstones weren't weather.

This is, again, a very very bad way to design spells . I conjure the fireball bead, then make it explode, your immunity to magic plays no part because no magic is being used.
See the problem?

No. Magic is still being used to keep the fireball in its shape, its a mass of energy. Acid is a substance. Conceptually they're two completely different things.

Was there any doubt this would turn into a whiny 3.5-bashing thread with lots of insults? I'm not surprised.

Not once he showed up.

 

[DungeonMaster]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that on that list, Finger of Death is inferior to disintegrate, its shorter range and only affects living targets. Ranged touch attacks are, 90% of the time, don't roll a one. Disintegrate is still a scary spell, now it fits better in the progression of uber-killy magic.

What the hell have you been playing? Finger of death is far superior to disintegrate unless you perpetually fight the 7% of monsters in the MM that are A-Undead or B-Constructs. Against the 93% of monsters that aren't guess what?
Range touch attacks like any additional roll CAN fail, and how when your base attack is the worst progression in the game, not to mention cover, concealement and the plethora of spells that provide miss chance.
Just because you run around fighting hill giants in the open all day long doesn't mean air elementals don't exist or nightfall.
3.5 disintegrate does not "fit better" into any progression at all. Specifically the "progression" is a pile of steaming dung because disintegrate no longer kills on a failed save and imprisonment has a save at 9th level. It's incompetently designed.

Because Harm's 3.0 incarnation was SOOOOO much better balanced, wasn't it? Doing upwards of 500 damage, no save, was just SO balanced, wasn't it?

Or doing 3? The list of monsters with 500+ hitpoints in the MM is what? a handful of CR>20 dragons?
Harm 3rd edition never killed a thing - not so in 3.5.
I take doing 300 flat damage on the critical hit from harm 3.5 is "game breaking".

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where giant hailstones weren't weather.

Yeah I bet you're in the same category of people who think it's appropriate for druids to have the "jump" spell because you have to eat a cricket because that's "nature-like".

No. Magic is still being used to keep the fireball in its shape, its a mass of energy. Acid is a substance. Conceptually they're two completely different things.

That's hilarious. Tell me then why does an incindiary cloud have a duration? Is it substance too? How about an orb of fire from complete arcane?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Sorry, I don't get your point.

The point was simple as stated on the previous page: all d8 wizard spells got turned into d6's.
Shocking grasp, horrid wilting for example. But there was no similar reduction of the damage dice of clerical spells. All those spells to "fit the progression" should be d6s. But they weren't changed to d6s. Hence bias.

Actually, no. I personally like it that wizards have a fairly reliable way to damage spell resistant opponents, and I think it makes a nice niche for the Conjuration school.

Well I don't think so and neither do the previous editions of D&D. I don't think it's balanced, at all, to have direct elemental damage not have SR. Indirect non-elemental damage, Evard's black tentacles, reverse gravity and similar is perfectly fine. The bluring of concepts where people start claiming "I evoke a ball of flame and it hurts you" vs. "I conjure a burning mist and it hurts you, but this is special burning mist that hurts you differently than that ball of flame" really doesn't fly for me. Just because it's a conjuration doesn't mean it's not, in the end, direct elemental damage.

 

[Thanee]

Not once he showed up.

Ah, I see. So you don't agree with his opinion, therefore you have the right to throw around insults, if he does not bow to yours, right?

No, wrong.

Bye
Thanee

 

[billd91]

Honestly the main reason I would never convert to 3.5 is because of the spell system. The "designer" who took a knife to it really should not touch 4th edition at all.
There are so many things wrong with the 3.5 spell system compared to 3rd edition it's absurd. It is literally a hack job.

A far from complete list, starting with much of the absurd working my way to just bad changes overall:
<snip>

I'm going to say that there are certainly some good points in here. I think some spells definitely needed editing (the buffs, anything with an unnamed bonus, harm, and haste), but I still found the true breadth of the changes shocking. It was like a project that got completely out of control or something. And too many of the changes were, I thought, unnecessary.
From this list, it looks like quite a few were pretty hasty as well. I have to wonder how much playtesting went into them. If a good chunk of the RPGA was involved in play testing 3.0 and didn't catch the problems with the ranger, harm, haste, and several other spells that were broken in combination, then I wonder about 3.5's journey through quality control.