D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Threat ranges no longer stack!

[Nail]

have you done the math to back that assesment up??

Exactly. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Some have complained...

My question: Do they know of what they speak?

For some, the answer has been "yes", for some the answer has been........

 

[Nail]

I think he's saying its a good change because in the past you had not only keen and impr crit that stacked, but all these other ways. So a rule agaisnt stacking is good.

Ah.

Now who's the one with a knee-jerk reaction? (Points at self.)

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Mike's here maybe he can bust out some math to show what kind of damage bonus you need in order for a rapier to beat out a long sword, and a falchion to beat out a two handed sword, before and after this change.

Sure.

Falcion/Scythe vs. Greatsword.

Each gets one bonus to the crit range, meaning that the Falchion/Scythe is doing 1.3 times damage due to crits, and the Greatsword is doing 1.2.

1.3(5 + x) > 1.2(7 + x)
6.5 + 1.3x > 8.4 + 1.2x
.1x > 1.9
x > 19

So if your damage bonus is 20 or higher, against an opponent that's susceptible to hits, all else being equal, it's better to use a Scythe or Falchion with Improved Crit than a Greatsword with Improved Crit.


Hvy Pick/Rapier vs. Longsword/Battleaxe

Again, 1.3 times vs. 1.2 times.

1.3(3.5 + x) > 1.2(4.5 + x)
4.55 + 1.3x > 5.4 + 1.2x
.1x > .85
x > 8.5

If your damage bonus is 9 or higher, blah-blah-blah, rapiers or heavy picks are a better choice than longswords.


Hvy Pick/Rapier vs. Bastard Sword/Dwarven War Axe

1.3(3.5 + x) > 1.2(5.5 + x)
4.55 + 1.3x > 6.6 + 1.2x
.1x > 2.05
x > 20.5

This one isn't pure apples-to-apples, of course, a bastard sword being an exotic weapon, but with Dwarves getting martial proficiency in war axe, I thought I'd run it. No comparison, here -- you need a damage bonus of 21.

I suspect, but suck at math so can't confirm that you need in the +10 range of bonus damage for the stackable crits style before the falchion or rapier overtakes the twho hander and long sword. And its probably more like +13 damage bonus after this change.

Actually, it was 13 when they were stackable.

I'm not a big fan of the no-stacking change. While 12-20 crits were obnoxious, they weren't overpowered.

 

[Metalsmith]

Speaking of Knee Jerk Reactions....

Uhmmm.......

Maybe you didn't read the title of this thread. ??

Maybey you didn't read my post.
I Like the limit. It seems like every other new supplement that rolls down the pipe has some new way to stack on additional Threat ranges.

Wow! I now crit on a -14 or Better!

 

[Fenes 2]

Knee-jerk response? If I don't have problems in my game with a 12-20 threat range, why should I change?

 

[Gwarok]

Gnads is the burliest lil halfling fighter you ever met, more attitude than a chiahuaha on speed. He's been dual wielding his Keen Khukri w/Imp Crit for some time now. I read this thread to him and now he's in the corner crying his lil heart out.....

 

[Spatzimaus]

The problem with the threat range stacking isn't the little extra damage Keen gives you. That's only comparable to the extra damage Flaming or Frost would give. To make things worse, it doesn't hurt Undead or Constructs, which aren't uncommon enemies.

The real problems with stacking are the non-damage abilities: Vorpal. Body Feeder. Mind Feeder. Soul Feeder. And so on. Any effect that only triggers on a crit and doesn't just do damage makes a huge difference.

And yes, I've played a character with a +1 Sure-Striking Keen Body Feeder Falchion abd Improved Critical, and yes, it's a bit obnoxious. A 12-20 threat range means 45% of my hits are crits. With a haste and a Body Feeder weapon, that was like getting a Heal every round for free.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

The real problems with stacking are the non-damage abilities: Vorpal. Body Feeder. Mind Feeder. Soul Feeder. And so on. Any effect that only triggers on a crit and doesn't just do damage makes a huge difference.

Vorpal was changed to only trigger on a 20, regardless of critical range. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to suggest that those other abilities (which are, dare I mention it, non-core) should do the same.

 

[nimisgod]

Gnads is the burliest lil halfling fighter you ever met, more attitude than a chiahuaha on speed. He's been dual wielding his Keen Khukri w/Imp Crit for some time now. I read this thread to him and now he's in the corner crying his lil heart out.....

Awww... does the wittle halfling want cookies?

 

[Celtavian]

re

well, it was fun while it lasted. Oh well, I'll see what they do with it.

It seems the design team went through and destroyed everything that made the players particularly powerful. I guess they wanted to make the game more of a challenge. We'll see how it works out.

I have to say, this is not D&D 3.5. I don't care what they tell me. This is 4th edition or not D&D aat all. Damn, the amount of changes to the game that will require serious character revision far exceed a minor upgrade.

I can't wait to get the actual books. I would be money that there will be even more changes that we did not expect.