D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Uncanny Dodge = Immune to Feints?

[Camarath]

As written you retain your Dex Bonus:

Even if... which is basically the same as saying [i[]for example when....[/i]

This text, as written, states that you retain your dex bonus in all circumstances except being immobilized.

"She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker."

You are wrong about what even if means in this case. Here even is an adverb "used as an intensive to stress an extreme or highly unlikely condition or instance" (definition of even). This means that even merely emphasizes retains (to keep in possession or use). If (in the event that) specifies under what circumstances the character retains their Dex bonus. Even can be removed from this sentence with out changing it's meaning. Nothing in the sentence states that you retain your Dex bonus "in all circumstances" as you have asserted. Since retains is modifed by the conjunction if it can not serves that function. Even is used only to indicate that these are unusual situations for the character to retain their dex in. You are using an improper grammatical interpretation of this sentence.

 

[Particle_Man]

I think I would side with the claim that bluff can make a person with uncanny dodge lose their dex bonus, although the uncanny dodge description could have been more carefully worded.

The way I see it, bluff does not work to fool the senses so much as to fool the brain behind the senses. When one's brain has "no opinion" to override the senses, as when a rogue is about to surprise one, then one's senses take over, and uncanny dodge works. When one's brain is relying upon one's non-visual senses, then uncanny dodge works.

But when one's brain thinks, "Ah, he is going to hit me from the right, so I should dodge left -- D'OH!", then the brain interferes with one's senses, and overrides one's instinct that it's a fake (unless you make the sense motive roll vs. the bluff role). So its a matter of being fooled into not trusting one's instincts.

Well, that's my take on it. I would accept either ruling in any campaign I played in, due to the poor wording.

Besides, it just is too fun for the weak little rogue to say to the hulking barbarian "By the way, your bootlaces are untied."

 

[Selganor]

Good to see that other people are unclear about that, too...

Sounds like a call from the Sage
(And an addition to the FAQ)

 

[Darklone]

Hi Selganor

I asked this or similar question several times already... But IIRC last time someone told me you don't lose your Dex bonus while climbing???

 

[the Jester]

Hi Selganor

I asked this or similar question several times already... But IIRC last time someone told me you don't lose your Dex bonus while climbing???

Hm, yes you do. It's pretty clearly spelled out in the climbing rules, iirc.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It's actually quite simple:

Uncanny dodge lets you retain your Dex bonus when flat-footed and when attacked by an invisible character.

A faint doesn't make you flat-footed, it just lets you lose your Dex bonus. Uncanny dodge doesn't help you against that, or it would read "with uncanny dodge, you always retain your dex bonus to AC, except when your immobilized".

So faint = no flat-footed = no uncanndoge helping.

 

[Artoomis]

I'll try again.

At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

This is a very inclusive sentence - it includes all conditions, even flat-footed and being struck by an invisible attacker.

However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

The next sentence is limiting the first inclusive one. Thus the use of the word, "however." If the first sentence was limited to only "flat-footed and "attacked by an invisible attacker," then the "however" starting the second sentence would not be needed.

Logic on bluff? Okay:

When bluffing, you are misdirected. However, the FAQ statement that allows a character to retain his Dexterity bonus when others cannot because they don’t have sufficient sensory information to do so can be read to mean that you can respond to a bluff better than others - they are misdirected and cannot recover in time, teh unmcanny dodge character can sense the attack coming and redirect his defenses faster than others.

As far as dictionary definitions, if "even" is being used "used as an intensive to stress an extreme or highly unlikely condition or instance" the problem is that the"extreme or unlikely condition" is not clearly defined in this case. The two conditions mentions are teh ones being used to "stress" the underlying fact that you retain your Dex bonus, and cannot be construed to be an all-inclusive list of conditions where you retain your Dex bonus under normal rules of English and the definition of the word "even."

In any case, I agree that more clarification would help.

 

[AGGEMAM]

This is a very inclusive sentence - it includes all conditions, even flat-footed and being struck by an invisible attacker.

You can't be serious.

While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

So while climbing you would say the character is either immobilized and looses dex bonus (if any) or he retains his dex bonus (if any).

Try reading the 3E version. They wrote 'regardless of' instead 'even if' but it still the same meaning.

 

[Artoomis]

You can't be serious.

Certainly I am. Let me give you a hyopthetical example using the same language:

Jack has extremely sensitive feet. His feet are sore when he stands even if he wears his orthotic supports or his fleece insoles. However, his feet are comfortable in his bunny slippers.

Now, let me ask you, WHEN are Jack's feet sore? Prety much always, except in his bunny slippers, right? The reading of this is the same as Uncanny Dodge.

So while climbing you would say the character is either immobilized and looses dex bonus (if any) or he retains his dex bonus (if any).

Except that this is clarified in the FAQ. "Immobile" is overstated in this case - it means whenever the DEX bonus is lost due to restricted mobility.

Try reading the 3E version. They wrote 'regardless of' instead 'even if' but it still the same meaning.

Agreed. The meaning IS the same. Try replacing "even if" with regardless of" in my example above. It comes out the same.

 

[AGGEMAM]

The FAQ also says this

Uncanny dodge allows you to keep your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.
It doesn’t help you if you’re immobilized.