[3.5] WotC theory on multi-class spellcasters

[kenjura]

For what it's worth, here's a mechanic I've considered:


each class has a primary ability; in the case of a spellcaster (wiz, sor, clr, drd), it's caster level.

When multiclassing, you can retain the special ability of your primary class; that is, the class in which you have a majority of levels. Thus, a 12th-level character's primary class, if any, would be the one with 7 levels or more.


This means a Ftr9Wiz11 would have a caster level of 20.
He'd still have only 6th-level spells, the same spells/day as a normal wiz11. Obviously, he wouldn't have gained the wizard bonus feats beyond 11th-level, nor the 2 free spells per level.

Caster level 20 for spell levels 6 and below isn't as big a deal as for levels 7-9; only a few spells (flame arrow, which shouldn't scale to 20, and chain lightning, which should, are two notable spells) even scale beyond 10 or 15.

Caster level is very important, because a wiz11/anything9 can't stand up to the SR of creatures of CR 20 and thereabouts without it. And the wizard's primary balancer, spell level, is still the exclusive province of full wizards.


If you're curious, I don't know what the "primary ability" for most other classes is...fighter is obviously base attack, and that's tricky at best. But that's another story..

 

[hong]

Take a look at Arcane Trickster in Tome and Blood.

... which is another PrC designed to bump up a supposedly weak multiclassing combo, and which could be rendered obsolete if multiclassing worked properly.

It grants +1 caster level at every level AND grants full sneak attack progression. Of course it doesn't grant some of the other Rogue class abilities, but this is still awfully close to leveling in both Rogue and Wizard at the same time. The precedent has already been set.

D00d, I'm talking about advancing spellcasting progression.

 

[Estlor]

I had a thought. Slightly co-opting RangerWickett's idea, I've formulated this.

First of all, each class level in which a character gains a caster level, their BCLB (base caster level bonus) increases by one. Arcane and divine levels stack. Each morning at spell preparation time, the character can designate how many points of his BCLB translate into effective caster levels in his various spellcasting class. The only restriction is he cannot put less than 1/2 his normal 3e caster level's worth of BCLB in each class (minimum 1).

Some examples:

A wizard 10/cleric 5 has a BCLB of 15 and can cast as any of the combinations:
Wizard 13/Cleric 2 - Wizard 5/Cleric 10

A paladin 10/Ranger 10 has a BCLB of 14 (note that he has a CL of 5 in each class from 3E). His combinations are:
Paladin 12/Ranger 2
Paladin 2/Ranger 12
(note the half level rule means his caster level will be 6/1 through 1/6)

I'd have to write this out on paper to make it clear, but it definitely prevents someone from taking 19 levels of bard and 1 level of sorcerer to have a bard with the firepower of a 20th level sorcerer. That character would HAVE to be a Bard 19/Sorcerer 1 through Bard 9/Sorcerer 11.

 

[Estlor]

Er, let me say the paladin ranger thing turned out wanky. Too wanky to just edit. Suffice to say, I still need to tweak the system to handle half casters!

 

[Chacal]

Er, let me say the paladin ranger thing turned out wanky. Too wanky to just edit. Suffice to say, I still need to tweak the system to handle half casters!

There were many threads in house rules about this. Below is an extract from
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=44575


how about this :
Your Caster Level (not spellcasting level) for a spellcasting class is equal to
- your class level in this class (+ the PrCs that make it progress)
plus
- half the remaining levels ( with a maximum =your class level)

So, for a Wiz4 Cleric 4 the CL are : wiz6 Cl6
for a Sorc 2 Fighter 6, sorc CL is 2[sorc] + (6[fight]/2 max 2[sorc] = 3 max 2 =2) =4
If the last one only adds non sorc level, its CL won't raise.
If it becomes Sorc3 Fight6, his CL will be 3[sorc]+3[half fighter max 3]

It seems to counter most of the abuses.

Chacal

P.S , there probably are issues with PrC designed to offset
the multiclass spellcasting penalty, because we're trying to do the same thing

 

[doktorstick]

I'm confused.

The reference to the WotC board suggests the WotC folk still are at odds at what to do about multi-class spellcasters. However, I thought the 3.5e books were (more or less) done. Are they suggesting that a) the 3.5e books won't solve the problem; and b) they'll eventually produce something that solves the problem? Perhaps 3.6e?

/ds

 

[Plane Sailing]

The answer then, to me, is simple, implement a new mechanic that says all spellcasting levels stack for purposes of level-based effects.

Darn system! ate my edits and posted the quote unchanged, then wouldn't let me back! I don't suppose anyone will read it now since its on page 3 of 4.

*anyway*

I was just going to say that I'm even simpler and more relaxed than Zhure here. I use character level whenever it calls for caster level. This benefits caster multiclasses and also people with odd levels in casting classes. The Ftr19/Sor1 in my campaign would have a caster level 20 for his 2 x 1st level spells. Will it give them unbalancing power at that level? I don't think so. The only potential problem that I can really see is the rather too buff "divine favour" spell for a Ftr19/Clr1, but that only lasts for a minute and doesn't scale in duration (and I don't really mind a 20th level character getting some decent divine favour in there. Of course, if I played with munchkins it might be different, but I don't.)

Cheers

 

[KDLadage]

I'm confused.

Welcome to the club. Your information packet should be in the mail very soon.

The reference to the WotC board suggests the WotC folk still are at odds at what to do about multi-class spellcasters.

Correct.

However, I thought the 3.5e books were (more or less) done.

Correct again.

Are they suggesting that a) the 3.5e books won't solve the problem

Sort of. They are suggesting that they recognize that a Clr10/Wiz10 cannot be as useful to a party as either a Clr20 or a Wiz20. The debate on if this is even a real problem is still going on. If it is a problem, Wizards has admitted to not knowing how to solve it elegantly.

; and b) they'll eventually produce something that solves the problem?

Doubtful. The problem is in the root/core of how Spell Casters and Spell Casting progression is handled in d20; which in turn is a relic (sacred cow, really) from the old AD&D days. This will not get fixed unless they scrap the current spell casting concepts and start over.

Perhaps 3.6e?

More like 4.0 --- and more likely 5.0 or later...

 

[Psion]

Sort of. They are suggesting that they recognize that a Clr10/Wiz10 cannot be as useful to a party as either a Clr20 or a Wiz20. The debate on if this is even a real problem is still going on. If it is a problem, Wizards has admitted to not knowing how to solve it elegantly.

Personally, I am in the "is this really a problem?" camp. Does every class combination have to be as competitive as all others? I'm not sure I am convinced that it does.

That said, I don't really consider PrCs a bad solution. Why? Because they are very purpose built. If you want X type to be viable, you allow the prestige class. Otherwise you don't.

Credit where it's due, if in your mind, magic power should all stack, get Elements of Magic (or come up with a system pretty much like it). It's pretty much that simple. Of course, if blurs the arcane/divine distinction, but you should have to IMO if you are going to assert that they should stack.

 

[KDLadage]

Personally, I am in the "is this really a problem?" camp.

As am I.