[3.5] WotC theory on multi-class spellcasters

[Artoomis]

My turn for a "solution"

First, I agree that the system unduly restricts mutliclassed spellcasters.

The primary problem is that you give up too much. At higher levels. the save DC's etc. are so low that the saves are virtually automatic and lower spell resistance stops you cold.

How about this extraordinarily simple system:

Character Level = Caster Level for each class, but no class can have a Caster Level higher than it would have were the character single class in that class.

Examples:

Wiz/Cl 10/10 = Caster Level 20/20 (10 + 10 = 20)

Wiz/Pal 10/10 = Caster Level 20/10 (Paladin at 20th level = 10, the max allowed)

Wiz/Pal 15/5 = Caster Level 20/10

Wiz/Pal 10/6 = Caster Level 16/8 (Paladin at 16th level would be 8, so that's the max allowed for her)

Wiz/Ftr 10/10 = Caster Level 20/0

Wiz/Cl 18/2 = Caster Level 20/20 Of course, the cleric has only 1st level spells, though he can cast them very well.

What do you think? It's very, very simple to make this happen within the current system.

 

[Draco Paladin]

Hi. I've been lurking, but some of these ideas are pretty intriguing.

Based on what I've read here and on other threads, here are some ideas for a quick spellcasting fix I've come up with. It's just off the top of my head, so it's probably not in working order yet.

And be kind. I'm new here.

1. One spellcasting progression table. (The Wizard progression would probably work best.)

2. Different spell lists per class. Or maybe, Arcane spells, then Divine Spells.

3. Differing rates of spellcaster progression. (Wiz/Sor/Clr/Dru would gain a spellcaster level per class level. Bar/Ran/Pal would get fewer spellcaster levels. Ftr/Mnk/Rog would get none. Prestige classes will vary.)

4. Access to domain spells, extra spells, bonus spells, spell lists and spell levels a class feature.
Examples:
a. Clerics would gain bonus spells (exclusively from the Cleric list) due to Wisdom at 1st level, get bonus domain spells and access to a higher spell level at every odd level, spontaneous cure/inflict, turning, et cetera.
b. Sorcerors would gain bonus spells (exclusively from the Arcane spell list) due to Charisma at 1st level, get 2 extra spells castable per spell level, and learn spells according to a Sorcerer spells known table. Spell slots can be used to cast those spells without preparation.

5. Caster level is Class level (+any relevant prestige classes) + 1/2 other levels (maybe even including monster hit dice and all that, depending on the flavor and power level you want)

6. This will produce characters with spell slots higher than spells known. Those can be filled with lower level spells, or metamagicked spells.

There are still a lot of kinks here. I also have a problem with the interaction of prepared and spontaneous spellcasting. (The way I see it, there should be more synergy between Wiz and Sor than between Wiz and Clr. So a Wiz10/Sor10 should be able to cast higher level arcane spells than a Wiz10/Clr10.)

But with these guidelines, a Clr10/Wiz10 produced with these rules can cast 5th level spells at caster level 15, and can use higher slots (up to 9th level) for metamagic. I kind of like that particular mix of versatility and power more than using Mystic Theurge...

What do you guys think?

 

[Deadguy]

Originally posted by Psion

Personally, I am in the "is this really a problem?" camp. Does every class combination have to be as competitive as all others? I'm not sure I am convinced that it does.

I think the point is that combination is not as effective because of a rules artefact, rather than because of a design reason. That is, because spell casting works very differently to the Skill system or the BAB mechanic, there exists the disparity. No designer sat down and said "let's make multi-classing inefficient for spellcasters, as that's too powerful". Instead, this just happened because no-one could work out a way to resolve it.

To put it another way, your remark sounds like we are to make a virtue of what is actually a flaw.

That said, I don't really consider PrCs a bad solution. Why? Because they are very purpose built. If you want X type to be viable, you allow the prestige class. Otherwise you don't.

I think you are right if we accept your predicate that spellcaster multi-classing shouldn't necessarily be effective. However, if you want the rules to remove this as an artefact, then it's a cumbersome method, with too much overhead. Better to find a general mechanical solution.

Credit where it's due, if in your mind, magic power should all stack, get Elements of Magic (or come up with a system pretty much like it). It's pretty much that simple. Of course, if blurs the arcane/divine distinction, but you should have to IMO if you are going to assert that they should stack.

Actually, I was thinking that that is something we are probably going to have to accept in the longer run. Of course, we've grown up used to the distinction, and tend to accept it unquestioningly. But I was re-reading some Raymond E. Feist today, an author who betrays the origins of his novels. And the discussions betwixt a Priest and a Mage sounded really really stilited, with an arbitrary boundary between "spiritual" and "supernatural" matters.

Ah well, it might well take a much bigger reworking than many would be happy with at this stage. But maybe in 4.0 we might find a way through!

 

[Enkhidu]

I've got to agree that the problem really lies with the basic D&D spell system: the artificial divisions between divine and arcane spell caster make it nigh impossible to do this elegantly.

There are options, though: one of them springs from Monte's new AU, and it wouldn't surprise me if he uses something similar to what I'll lay out here.

We know that in AU, spells are broken up into 3 tiers. I don't recall what he called them, but for this we'll just call them Common, Rare, and Exotic. Basically, from what I've gathered, all spellcaster - regardless of type - will have access to the Common list of spells. No matter how they cast magic, all casters have the ability to make certain things happen. Rare spells are spells that are exculsive to the class - this is a much smaller list. Exotic spells are ones that require feats to cast.

With this in mind, I think it becomes obvious that casters can stack levels for all spells that overlap - all spells on the Common list (and all Rare spells that the classes have in commone as well). Of course, to apply this for D&D, it would mean a major overhaul of spell lists - something that wouldn't be feasible until maybe 4.0.

 

[Psion]

I think the point is that combination is not as effective because of a rules artefact, rather than because of a design reason. That is, because spell casting works very differently to the Skill system or the BAB mechanic, there exists the disparity. No designer sat down and said "let's make multi-classing inefficient for spellcasters, as that's too powerful". Instead, this just happened because no-one could work out a way to resolve it.

To put it another way, your remark sounds like we are to make a virtue of what is actually a flaw.

Uh, no. I never at all suggested that they purposed decided that multiclassed spellcasters should be inefficient. And yes, it is an artefact of the way multiclassing and spell power works. But is that a bad thing? It's only a bad thing if "equivalence of all combinations" was a goal. AFAICT, it pretty clearly was not, judging from early discussion on how 3e multiclassing works and how the 20% hit makes characters with untenable class combinations unplayable.

Actually, I was thinking that that is something we are probably going to have to accept in the longer run.

I don't necessarily think so at all. Divine/arcane dichotomy has something of a precedent, as well as simply being a D&D trapping. Some like the (admittedly modern) viewpoint of magic as science and being distinct from magic as faith or as powers of deities. Similarly, even other magic systems recognize this distinction. Ars Magica makes wizards totally separate from religious magic and churches have antithetical effects on them.

That doesn't mean it is the only possible model, though, and in some instances is a bit troublesome. When considering the role of shamans and spirits in my game, the arcane/divine distinction became rather sticky, and in some worldviews, magic is entirely dealing with powerful spirits, which is arguably divine.

In short, if you want all magic to stack, I think it makes sense to do away with the distinction and assume a common underpinning. But it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Personally, I am in the "is this really a problem?" camp. Does every class combination have to be as competitive as all others? I'm not sure I am convinced that it does.

I agree. If you realize from the start that a cleric-10/wiz-10 won't be super great, then why does it matter?

I just don't want to see a mixed caster like that become the standard. It's already rare to see a wizard that doesn't go the PrC route, if they make the cleric/wiz too useful, it'll make it a bit worse in my eyes.

That said, I don't really consider PrCs a bad solution. Why? Because they are very purpose built. If you want X type to be viable, you allow the prestige class. Otherwise you don't.

After thinking about it, I may actually allow the Super Theurgist. I'll probably just cap it at 5 levels though.

IMO, if you feel so strongly about your cleric/wiz, but don't use it because it's too weak, that you probably really didn't feel strongly enough about it anyway.

I wonder if we'll see an Arcane Psionicist. Full progression for both psion and wizard levels!

 

[TwoSix]

Uh, no. I never at all suggested that they purposed decided that multiclassed spellcasters should be inefficient. And yes, it is an artefact of the way multiclassing and spell power works. But is that a bad thing? It's only a bad thing if "equivalence of all combinations" was a goal. AFAICT, it pretty clearly was not, judging from early discussion on how 3e multiclassing works and how the 20% hit makes characters with untenable class combinations unplayable.

"Equivalence of all combinations" wasn't a goal, but viability of nearly all combinations most likely was. I doubt they planned to make combinations like Wiz/Clr or Wiz/Sor almost unusable.

 

[drothgery]

IMO, the problem isn't building a mechanic that would work for allowing multi-class spellcasters to stack reasonably. It's building one that doesn't engage in mass slaughter of sacred cows.

Rough idea that would be workable, but I'm not sure would be D&D. First, scrap all the existing major and minor spellcasters.

Add one core major spellcasting class, based on the d20 WoT initiate (with some tweaks, a vastly expanded spell list -- more and better balanced Talents, and the WoT-isms removed). Largely replaces the wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid.

Add a WoT woodsman-like core class. Largely replaces the Ranger.

Add a modified figher that sacrifices bonus feats and some other abilities for 1/2 spellcasting progression. Replaces the Paladin and the spellcasting Ranger.

For a bard, use the stock bard, except replace the spell chart with 2/3 spellcasting progression.

 

[Celtavian]

re

The only way they will viably come up with a balanced and entertaining version of a multiclass spellcaster is to create a core class with a more limited spells per day capable of casting from either spell list. Maybe have a spell list like they have for clerics domain spells. Say a first level "Cleric/Mage" would have access to 1+1 spells. That is 1 first level mage spell and one 1st level wizard spell.

Then extrapolate a reasonably spell progression with perhaps a few appropriate special abilities or bonus feats, and let it be.

Seems the easiest way to create a viable multiclass spell caster that fits the bill for being balanced and entertaining.

 

[millipj]

Just a couple of musings

1) I'lll admit I've just quickly scrolled down , but I didn't see anyone mention Monte Cook's solution to be unveiled in Arcana Unearthed.


2) On converting it was recommended that a 10/10 multiclass 2E character became a 15th level 3E character.
Reversing this, shouldn't a 15th level spell caster be equiv to a 10/10 Wiz/Clr not the 7/8 he became? It seems to me that the Mystic Theurge does just that.