[3.5] WotC theory on multi-class spellcasters

[Will]

Riffing off rangerwittick's comments, my idea on multiclassing (which I hope to use in product in, oh, a few months) I'd greatly appreciate constructive feedback.

Max Spell Level
Max spell level starts at 1 for wizards, clerics, druids, and sorcerers. Regardless of indicated spells per day, this is the maximum spell level allowed for that class. Round down unless otherwise specified.
Max spell level = +1/2 (wizard, druid, or cleric level –1), +1/3 (sorcerer level –1), +1/2 bard level from 1–5, +1/3 bard level +2 6+, +1/4 paladin and ranger level.

Caster point level
Casters have a number of points with which they can cast spells per day. 3 points are spent on prepared spells, while spontaneous spells take only 2.
Caster point level = +1/2 per bard level, +1/4 per ranger or paladin level, +1 per other caster level. Caster level = +1/2 per ranger or paladin level, +1 per other caster level.

Known/Available spells
There are a few changes. Clerics gain 10 spells available per level. Druids, rangers, and paladins gain 5 spells available per level. Multiclassed characters have a lot of flexibility and power to cast spells. A Wiz8/Clr1 may cast spells much more frequently than a first level cleric, but has the same number of divine spells as that novice cleric.
Sorcerers gain spells known per level as per their chart, as do bards. When muticlassing both gain 2 spells known per level, placed in any spell level they wish. However, only one spell known can be learned at maximum spell level known per level.

Multiclass
Extra classes add normally. However, the number of spellcaster classes adjusts caster rank and regular level downward. Having 2 spellcaster classes provides a penalty of –1, having 3 provides a penalty of –1 1/2, and having 4 spellcaster classes provides a penalty of –2. Note that the penalty cannot exceed the contribution the lower classes make to the higher.

For example, a Sor8/Rgr2 has max spell level of 4 1/3 + 1/2, caster rank of 8 + 1/2, and caster level of 8 + 1. A penalty of –1 can only erase the addition of the ranger. Max spell level stays at 4th, caster rank stays at 8, but caster level drops from a potential 9 back to an 8.
Bonus spells are listed per attached attribute. They can only be used by appropriate spells. A Wiz/Clr with high wisdom could cast extra divine spells.
Clerics gain one ‘domain spell known’ per level. This may be of any level they can cast. Total number of cleric levels is also the number of domain spells they may cast each day. Only one domain spell of a given level may be prepared.
Points per Day
Prepping a spell costs 3 points. Spontaneously casting a spell costs 2 points. Note that the character must know appropriate spells, and the rules for a particular class are in force for casting that spell.

Points per day
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 10 6 — — — — — — — —
2 12 8 — — — — — — — —
3 12 8 3 — — — — — — —
4 12 10 8 — — — — — — —
5 12 10 8 3 — — — — — —
6 12 10 10 8 — — — — — —
7 12 12 10 8 3 — — — — —
8 12 12 10 10 8 — — — — —
9 12 12 12 10 8 3 — — — —
10 12 12 12 10 10 6 — — — —
11 12 12 12 12 10 8 3 — — —
12 12 12 12 12 10 10 6 — — —
13 12 12 12 12 10 10 8 3 — —
14 12 12 12 12 12 10 10 6 — —
15 12 12 12 12 12 12 10 8 3 —
16 12 12 12 12 12 12 10 10 6 —
17 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 10 8 3
18 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 10 10 6
19 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 10 9
20 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12

(Sorry for the spacing... no idea how to format this properly here)

So you have a Wiz8/Clr8. Max spell level starts at 1, +3 1/2 for wizard (wizard level minus one, halved), +3 1/2. There is a –1 penalty for having 2 spell classes, so a total value of 7. He can cast 7th level spells.
His point level is simpler to calculate — 8 + 8, –1 again for having 2 classes, or 15. Note that while he would normally get 3 8th level points, he cannot use them due to max spell level.
Since both spell classes prepare magic, he effectively uses the wizard spells cast per day at 15th level.
He would know as many divine spells as an 8th level cleric, with 8 domain spells, and as many arcane spells as an 8th level wizard.

 

[Technik4]

There is a direct linkage between overlap of the class abilities and gain in power... the more thay overlap, the more power but the less gain in flexibility

Not even close when applied to spellcasters. Look at a Clr10/Dru10 or a Wiz10/Sor10. Heck even a Brd10/Sor10 is way behind the curve.

Someone could make the case that Wiz10/Clr10 = Wiz20 or Clr20 because of versatility, but I have never heard that a Sor10/Wiz10 or a Clr10/Dru10 stack up to the single-class brethren.

As far as "sub-optimal" choices, should there really be sub-optimal choices? Of course there should, if there weren't it implies every choice is optimal, which seems impossible.

Its sub-optimal for a tank fighter to take Weapon Finesse.

Its sub-optimal for a blaster mage to take Power Attack.

Should it be sub-optimal to multiclass in certain ways? That is the root of the problem with spellcasting multiclass rules in 3rd edition. In most respects, it is suboptimal, compared to someone of your level. If you think it is just a "bad" choice, that should never be a "good" choice, then perhaps you should stop reading this thread now. You don't want a change because even if it was balanced, you would still consider it "bad".

A clr/wiz is not powerful enough by having access to armors that interfere with his arcane spells, healing spells, and a larger hit die to compete against challenges for his level. In effect, his ECL should be lowered (if there is such a mechanic) to reflect his lack of power. When you start comparing characters with "overlapping class abilities" like a Sor/Wiz or Clr/Drd things look even more dire, as the supposed "flexibility" is all but absent.

Technik

 

[RangerWickett]

I'll admit, this has never actually been a problem for me in my games, but I know that it might irk some people, which is why on EOM we tried to handle the problem, and give people new toys to play with. Unfortunately, some of the toys were unsafe, and we're in the process of redesigning a few to make them more fun to play with and safer. In effect, the original EOM was well-intentioned, but overpowered, so we're revising it to fix these problems. There's a whole thread about it on the E.N. Publishing forum, so I won't go into it here.

I just wanted to have the system mix better, so that if a 15th level wizard takes a few levels of druid, that he'll be powerful with those spells. I mean, he's had a lot of experience using magic; you think it would've rubbed off, even with a new class.

Alternately, I think in 4e we should go back to THAC0, but keep multiclassing as it is now. Whenever you attack, you'll have to choose which THAC0 you want to use.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Personally, I am in the "is this really a problem?" camp. Does every class combination have to be as competitive as all others? I'm not sure I am convinced that it does.

That said, I don't really consider PrCs a bad solution. Why? Because they are very purpose built. If you want X type to be viable, you allow the prestige class. Otherwise you don't.

Credit where it's due, if in your mind, magic power should all stack, get Elements of Magic (or come up with a system pretty much like it). It's pretty much that simple. Of course, if blurs the arcane/divine distinction, but you should have to IMO if you are going to assert that they should stack.

You said it for me too. It seems like WoTC is busy solving a non-problem. Certain combos will be suboptimal. Just don't choose them. Arcane and divine magic are not related. Complaining that they don't stack well strikes me as being the same as wanting the best racecar and the best off-road SUV in the same package then complaining when the engineers say that it isn't possible.

'nuff said from me.

Tzarevitch

 

[Enkhidu]

Re: Just a couple of musings

1) I'lll admit I've just quickly scrolled down , but I didn't see anyone mention Monte Cook's solution to be unveiled in Arcana Unearthed.


2) On converting it was recommended that a 10/10 multiclass 2E character became a 15th level 3E character.
Reversing this, shouldn't a 15th level spell caster be equiv to a 10/10 Wiz/Clr not the 7/8 he became? It seems to me that the Mystic Theurge does just that.

Try scrolling up a handful of posts - its there.

 

[Nine Hands]

The Problem summarized (as I see WOTC expressing it): multi-classed spellcasters are weaker than single-class spellcasters.

Specifically: Lower DC's, insufficient spell penetration, lower dice of effect.

The answer then, to me, is simple, implement a new mechanic that says all spellcasting levels stack for purposes of level-based effects.

Thus, in our Wiz 10/ Cleric 10 archetype:
-Dispel would be 1d20 + 10 (maxes out at 10)
-Greater Dispel would be 1d20+20
-Fireball would be 10d6 (maxes at 10)
-a spell resistance check would be 1d20+20
-a cure moderate wounds would be 3d8+15
-a cure serious wounds would be 4d8+20
-etc

The only thing the multiclassed caster loses out on is higher level spells, but he gains a breadth of lower level spells. Paladin and Ranger levels still count as 1/2.

Other notes:
-A Sorcerer 10/ Wiz 10 is a little hosed in the base rules, until he picks up a ring of wizardry or two.
-For those who insist on bringing back the dreaded Cleric/Magic-User death machine from 2e and before, I currently recommend they play a Cleric of Magic and Spells.

/ramble
Greg

I had a similar idea...

Since the new rules for Spell Power are changing (no longer is Spell Power going to add to save DC, its a bonus to caster level checks and caster level). This introduces a new idea. Spell Power as a class ability.

Consider this. A 20th level Wizard has a spell power of +20 (effectively). So create a Spell Power column for all spellcasting classes. Allow spell power from different sources using the same "type of magic" to stack. I.E. Divine stacks with Divine, Arcane stacks with Arcane. When you combine the two types, the magic type that is not the same is half as effective. This allows a 10/10 Cleric Wizard to have the spell slots of a 10th level Cleric and a 10th level Wizard. His caster level to penetrate spell resistance and his effective caster level is 15. Similar to the Mystic Theurge, except that his spell slots are less (I think the Mystic Theurge has the slots as a 15th level cleric and wizard).

For classes that do not give spellcasting per se, give them a flat 1/4 thier level as a bonus. This can be either Arcane or Divine as the player sees fit, but once the choice is made, then it not be changable.

Now there is room for a a couple of feats. One could remove the Divine/Arcane penalty. One could boost the benefits of a non-spellcasting class. Heck you could give bonuses for a characters favored class if you wanted to be generous.

Remember that giving a character a bonus to spellcasting level is much less unbalancing than other things. Esp if you make certain that there is no way that a multiclassed character can have a better caster level than a dedicated spellcaster.

I think this fixes most of the problems, I guess. The character will not have the best save DCs in the world but that is really less of a problem for me. My main problem with multiclassed spellcasters has been spell resistance and actual effects of spells.

It may be easier to give the Paladin and Ranger a caster level equal to level instead of half, then you can give non spellcasting classes half thier level. This may even the playing field.

Here are a couple of examples.

10th level Ranger/10th level Paladin. Has the spell slots of a 10th level Ranger and Paladin. His effective caster level is 10 (since these casters run at half caster level anyway, which I kind of dislike, but those are the rules). Using the alternate rule that rangers and paladins have full spellcasting levels instead of half, gives them the casting of a 20th level caster instead.

1st level Sorcerer/19th level Fighter. Has the spell slots of a 1st level Sorcerer and the caster level of a 5th level caster. Again not horribly unbalanced yet better than being just a 1st level caster.

10th level Wizard/10th level Fighter. Has the spell slots of a 10th level Wizard and the caster level of 12th level. Using the alternate idea that non-spellcasting classes grant 1/2 caster level gives a 10/10 Wizard/Fighter a caster level of 15. Not too shabby.

I think I will have to playtest this

 

[Nine Hands]

Re: Just a couple of musings

1) I'lll admit I've just quickly scrolled down , but I didn't see anyone mention Monte Cook's solution to be unveiled in Arcana Unearthed.

That would be in violation of my NDA

Yes, Monte's idea is sound if you use his system of magic, which even though it is excellent, I will not be using. The amount of conversion is going to be a bit of a pain and we have gotten used to the current spell slot system as it stands. I may eventually use his ready and use style in the future but not the entire system.

 

[neroden]

My usual suggestion is as follows:

Add a "Base Spellcasting Level" which
stacks, much like Base Attack Bonus.

Full spellcasting classes increase it
every level, "partial" spellcasting classes
like the Paladin and Ranger increase it
more slowly, non-spellcasting classes
increase it most slowly.

This, then, replaces "caster level" for
all purposes where "caster level" is
mentioned in a spell description, for
"caster level checks", for magic item
creation feat prereqs, etc.

But it does not change the *spell slot*
progression of any of the classes.

Then a Wiz10/Sor10 has up to 5th level spells in
each of his classes, but casts them as a 20th level caster.

This still leaves him somewhat underpowered relative to
a Wiz20, but it makes up quite a large portion of the difference, with no appreciable disadvantages.

(So your fighter19 becomes a Wiz1 and can cast the maximum number
of magic missiles with one spell. That's fine. )

I don't know why WOTC hasn't implemented this; I've really heard no game balance arguments against it. Further balance issues can be worked out after this is well playtested.

 

[Hardhead]

One idea that wouldn't require a hugely extensive rewrite of the D&D spellcasting system would be allow spells to scale up based on character level, instead of caster level.

Thus, if you're a Wizard1/Fighter 10, you get five magic missles.

In general, that means you're multiclassers are still going to have bad spells compared to pure casters, but not so much worse that it's cripling.


EDIT: I just saw that Plane Sailing said he already does this.

I think this is, by far, the simplest and best solution. It would require the rewriting of several spells to make it work really well, but that's a change to individual spells, and not some drastic spelcasting class progression rewrite.


- Z a c h

 

[Remathilis]

My usual suggestion is as follows:

Add a "Base Spellcasting Level" which
stacks, much like Base Attack Bonus.

Full spellcasting classes increase it
every level, "partial" spellcasting classes
like the Paladin and Ranger increase it
more slowly, non-spellcasting classes
increase it most slowly.

This, then, replaces "caster level" for
all purposes where "caster level" is
mentioned in a spell description, for
"caster level checks", for magic item
creation feat prereqs, etc.

But it does not change the *spell slot*
progression of any of the classes.

Then a Wiz10/Sor10 has up to 5th level spells in
each of his classes, but casts them as a 20th level caster.

This still leaves him somewhat underpowered relative to
a Wiz20, but it makes up quite a large portion of the difference, with no appreciable disadvantages.

(So your fighter19 becomes a Wiz1 and can cast the maximum number
of magic missiles with one spell. That's fine. )

I don't know why WOTC hasn't implemented this; I've really heard no game balance arguments against it. Further balance issues can be worked out after this is well playtested.

Here's my problem...

A 10/10 pure caster combo is limited to 5th level spells. Period.

With the current DC, Metamagic, and other misc rules (archmage high arcana) spell LEVEL is more important than caster level. The great balance factor mentioned for the theurge is that he is 2 spell levels below a pure claster, a current m/c is 4 levels below a pure caster, this means is part

Max DC: 15 + Ability mod
Highest level spell quickened: 1st.

Spell Diffs:
Mass CLW vs. Mass Heal
Cone of Cold vs. Horrid Wilting
Summon Monster V vs. Gate
Teleport vs. Plane Shift
Animate Dead vs. Create Greater Undead
Etc.

It doesn't matter if he casts them as a 1st level caster or a 20th, these are sup-par choices for a wizard or cleric, and usually means your party won't have the spells needed to overcome situations for high level foes (A 10/10 wiz/cler is stopped cold by a Prismatic Wall, a 20th caster can take it down with ease.

What we need is a way to allow multi-casters options to higher spell slots without giving them the boat-load of lower level slots in the meantime. (AKA, similiar spells per day progression to a single class, more spell choices due to Multi-classing.)

Synergy levels between arcane and divine classes would also help. Maybe add half your spellcasting levels from one arcane class to another (10/10 wiz/sor would cast as a 15/15), and the same with divine (10/10 pal/clr casts as 10/15).