D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5E]Alternate spell changing for sorcerers

[Hashmalum]

I don't really like the new mechanic that allows a sorcerer (or bard) to change what spells he knows. The problem I have with it is that it doesn't make sense that a character might know a certain spell (and have known it for years), yet they can suddenly forget it literally overnight when they gain a level. "You cast sleep just yesterday, what do you mean you don't know how to cast it anymore?" At the same time, players now expect to be able to change spells known by their spontaneous casting characters, so I decided to come up with a new system.

My idea is that at any level-up, a sorcerer can choose to "forget" any number of spells he knows (of any level), but he does not replace them until the level-up after that. The "forgotten" spells stay on the list of spells known, and only permanently disappear upon reaching the subsequent level and even then only if they have not been used once in the whole interval in between "forgetting" them and learning new spells to replace them. If the character casts a spell he had decided to forget, it is removed from the list of "forgotten" spells; if the character still wants to replace it, he'll have to wait until next level to "forget" it again and the level after that to get a new spell in its place. As before, of course you can only replace spells with spells of the same level, but there's no limit on the level of the spell to be replaced. And as before, you must make the decision at the same time as you learn the new spells for the level. So overall this system is more flexible, but much slower. Comments, please?

 

[Jens]

It sounds fine, but why require the sorcerer/player to decide which spells he will 'forget'? Why not just let him replace any spell that hasn't been used since you last gained a sorcerous spellcasting level?

I mean, in your system, what would be the downside to saying "I forget all my spells" and then just use those you want? Then, in a level's time, you'd effectively be allowed to replace any spells that you hadn't used for the past level.

 

[hong]

I'd just let sorcs gain the extra spell at every even level, instead of having to lose one in exchange. Ie, no swapping. Sorcs don't strike me as a particularly strong class anyway, so it shouldn't lead to major problems.

 

[DreamChaser]

I'd just let sorcs gain the extra spell at every even level, instead of having to lose one in exchange. Ie, no swapping. Sorcs don't strike me as a particularly strong class anyway, so it shouldn't lead to major problems.

you joking right?

versatile? not at all.

strong? never having to worry about how many "blow it up" spells you need to prepare: priceless.

lacking in a bit of flavor? ablsolutely.

DC

 

[hong]

you joking right?

No, I'M supposed to troll YOU, not vice-versa.

versatile? not at all.

strong? never having to worry about how many "blow it up" spells you need to prepare: priceless.

lacking in a bit of flavor? ablsolutely.

For a very long time, a sorc is going to be stuck with a bare handful of spells at the top levels that he can cast. You _do_ actually need more than one spell per level, and choosing whether to take (say) fly, dispel magic or fireball; or dimension door, improved invis or phantasmal killer; or teleport, cone of cold or hold monster, is not a trivial issue. Thinking that you're invincible just because you can cast one spell a dozen times per day is asking to be acquainted with resurrection.

Eventually, you'll have all the spells you're likely to need, say at 18th level or so. By that time, the wizard is going to have enough spell slots to be able to cast all the boom spells, buff spells and utility spells he's likely to need as well. So, no, the sorc is not an overpowered class in comparison to the opposition.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't really like the new mechanic that allows a sorcerer (or bard) to change what spells he knows. The problem I have with it is that it doesn't make sense that a character might know a certain spell (and have known it for years), yet they can suddenly forget it literally overnight when they gain a level. "You cast sleep just yesterday, what do you mean you don't know how to cast it anymore?"

I don't think this is likely to happen. A spell they find useful enough to cast the previous day is not one they will likely want to replace. If the spell was successful, that is.

A spell that all one's opponents save against, or which has not been useful lately, is one which apparently has been fading from the character's mind. The spell swapping mechanic is just a reflection that skills have gotten rusty to the point of unusability.

 

[ichabod]

I think the original idea for the mechanic came from spell chains, which came from the idea of power chains for psions in a Dragon article. For example, if a sorcerer gets invisibility, then gets improved invisibility, the original invisibility is clogging up his spell selection. So you would let the sorcerer replace the original invisibility spell with another spell when they learned improved (now greater) invisibility. The idea wasn't that he was forgetting a spell, it was that his greater understanding of a spell he had before had made that spell more powerful. 3.5 seems to have gone for a looser, easier to deal with rule, but if you have a problem with it, why not specify a bunch of spell chains that can be used? Or you could just outline the idea to your players and approve spell swaps on a case by case basis.

 

[Hashmalum]

I think the original idea for the mechanic came from spell chains, which came from the idea of power chains for psions in a Dragon article. For example, if a sorcerer gets invisibility, then gets improved invisibility, the original invisibility is clogging up his spell selection. So you would let the sorcerer replace the original invisibility spell with another spell when they learned improved (now greater) invisibility. The idea wasn't that he was forgetting a spell, it was that his greater understanding of a spell he had before had made that spell more powerful. 3.5 seems to have gone for a looser, easier to deal with rule, but if you have a problem with it, why not specify a bunch of spell chains that can be used? Or you could just outline the idea to your players and approve spell swaps on a case by case basis.

The point isn't to implement spell chains/power chains (which I plan to implement as a seperate feat); the point is to allow characters to replace spells they don't use with new ones. There are many reasons that a character might not use a particular spell for a while other than learning a new spell that does the same thing only better. They might have made a bad choice to start with (especially likely with new players to the game), the spell might be one that is intrinsically useless past a certain level (such as the daze and sleep spells with their fixed HD caps), or the campaign environment might have changed dramatically such that previous spells are no longer useful (such as a greatly prolonged exploration of a lich-ridden crypt filled with undead negating the usefulness of mind-affecting spells).

I don't think this is likely to happen. A spell they find useful enough to cast the previous day is not one they will likely want to replace. If the spell was successful, that is.

See the previous response regarding spells with fixed limits.

It sounds fine, but why require the sorcerer/player to decide which spells he will 'forget'? Why not just let him replace any spell that hasn't been used since you last gained a sorcerous spellcasting level?

It's really just a record-keeping convenience. If you rely on memory alone, sooner or later the player involved and the DM are likely to remember things differently (leading to arguements). If the DM institutes a usage-tracking system for all sorcerer spells players will probably be annoyed by the extra work, and/or forget to do it.

I mean, in your system, what would be the downside to saying "I forget all my spells" and then just use those you want? Then, in a level's time, you'd effectively be allowed to replace any spells that you hadn't used for the past level.

Very little, really. Well, I guess you might forget to use a spell you wanted to keep and lose it by mistake, and you'd have to do some additional bookkeeping on all your spells. Like I said, the "forgetting" is just a record-keeping convenience.

 

[DreamChaser]

since sorcerers don't really "learn" spells in the same way that wizards do we don't have to think of it as "forgetting"

I tend to think of it as reshaping (since his magic is innate). A sorcerer has the sleep spell. he has had it since 1st level. Now at 5th level, he discovers that it has become less useful. He begins meditating and focusing his energies and he transforms the part of him that used to be the sleep spell is now the Charm Person spell.

I guess the only requirement I would put on it is that the spell should be of the same school or at least have a metaphorically related effect. Going from sleep to burning hands seems awkward (although totally within the rules). Going from burning hands to color spray seems less so (they are both 15' cones).

DC