D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5e] Damage Reduction

[Grog]

Grog: I agree with you 100% that fighters are pretty underpowered at high levels in 3e. I also agree with you that DR, both in 3e and 3.5e, screws fighters; that's its purpose, just as SR is there to "screw" spellcasters. However, I think that the new DR rules screw fighters less than the old, for the simple reason that changing DR type and simultaneously lowering DR values gives fighter-types two options: 1) carry a variety of weapons; or 2) concentrate on doing enough damage to bypass DR.

I mentioned this in the last thread about the new DR rules, but I'll say it again here. "Bypassing" DR by doing enough damage is not the issue. That's going to be pretty easy for most fighters to do. The real issue is whether the fighter can still do enough damage to have an impact on the enemy after the DR is subtracted.

To take an example, say a low-mid level fighter gets 2 attacks and does 2d6+8 damage per hit. That's an average of 15 points per hit, or 30 points a round. Now say he goes up against a DR 10 creature and he doesn't have the right type of weapon for it. He can get through the 10 points of DR easily. But look at what happens to his damage. It drops from 15 points per hit to 5 points per hit, or 10 points per round. His damage is 1/3 of what it used to be. And 10 points per round is probably not going to be very significant against an enemy you'd be facing at 8th level.

Meanwhile, the spellcasters are still going to be slinging their spells for full damage.

And another problem is that these rules cut the power of certain types of fighters more than others. Dual wielders do less damage per hit than 2 handed weapon users, but they make up for it with more hits. But since DR applies on every hit, dual wielders are worse off than 2 handed weapon users. Dual wielders are almost forced into the golf bag route. This is not a good thing, IMO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The game designers WANT the fighter to pull out his mace when fighting skeletons. To carry a silver dagger for fighting werewolves. To carry the one adamantine-tipped arrow for emergencies. They don't think that every problem should be solved by an application of GMW.

Well, yeah, but the point of the golfbag is that a fighter specialised in longsword is going to carry a +1 flaming frost keen longsword (GMW'd up) most of the time, but at need, he'll pull out his silver longsword, his cold iron longsword, his adamantine longsword, or his jade longsword. Or, on the odd occasion when there are skeletons, maybe a mace. And then get it GMW'd up anyway.

Most of the time, he's still going to be getting all his nifty longsword benefits.

-Hyp.

 

[MerakSpielman]

A fighter who specializes too heavily on one weapon should have the same sort of problem as an assault-spellcaster who only learns Fire-based spells. Most of the time the one weapon will be great, just like most of the time the fire spells will be great. Every now and then the one weapon will suck, and so will the fire spells.

The smart spellcaster always varies his memorized spells and doen't pidgeonhole himself.

So, the smart fighter should vary his weapon ability and not pidgeonhole himself.

 

[bret]

First he tries 'normal' : Rolls and hits, but only does 3pts damage. Since combat is abstract, you 'hit' people all the time and do no damage, that is how armour works (or natural armour) We just count those as 'misses'. Now, if all he did was hit the natural armour and do no damage, how can he (without metagaming) know it was anything other than a miss? But, lets assume he swings more than once, or just guesses lucky....

It was my impression that the way DR worked is that the damage instantly healed. You would see the wound be made and immediately close up. There would be a visual clue that you hit but it wasn't effective, versus you having missed.

More importantly, when you finally used the correct material you would notice that the wound does not immediately heal.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

That's one "cinematic type" of DR, appropriate for vampires and werewolves, IMO.

I think in the case of a dragon, the weapon simply bounces off (or strikes a glancing blow).

Hmm... what about a lich?

 

[Staffan]

Why should he be penalized for his choice?

Do you think that fighters who take other feats should also be "penalized"? How can you "penalize" a fighter who takes Spring Attack? What about a wizard who takes Empower Spell?

Why are weapon specific feats more deserving of penalties than any of those choices?

Though I didn't post the original comment, I think you're taking "penalized" in the wrong context here. Just like there are situations where Mobility won't help you (like when you're fighting a single foe without reach), or situations where Sunder won't do you any good (your opponent uses natural weapons), there should be occasions where Weapon Focus/Specialization won't help (because the weapon you're specialized in isn't effective against the beastie).

 

[Victim]

Hear, hear!

I agree unequivocally with this point, and I think it's exactly what the DR revisions are intended to accomplish.

Grog: I agree with you 100% that fighters are pretty underpowered at high levels in 3e. I also agree with you that DR, both in 3e and 3.5e, screws fighters; that's its purpose, just as SR is there to "screw" spellcasters. However, I think that the new DR rules screw fighters less than the old, for the simple reason that changing DR type and simultaneously lowering DR values gives fighter-types two options: 1) carry a variety of weapons; or 2) concentrate on doing enough damage to bypass DR.

In 3.0, GMW was basically always sufficient to bypass DR, meaning that a cleric, say, was effectively better at bypassing DR than a fighter. More to the point, in a party with casters able to dispense GMW at little costs in spell slots, the secondary fighters, and especially the archers, were just as good at bypassing DR as the primary fighters.

DR isn't designed to screw fighters. In most cases, fighters can easily use their main weapon to cut through DR. DR is designed to make some creatures super tough to kill for low level guys without special weapons. The conventional army poses no threat to the Dragon or Demon - it takes powerful magic weapons that can only be created by skilled wizards or looted from ancient tombs by mighty warriors to hurt those monsters.

 

[Staffan]

Meanwhile, the spellcasters are still going to be slinging their spells for full damage.

And against other opponents, the spellcasters see their powerful spells bounce off because of high SR and/or elemental resistances.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

That either assumes a rather high level fighter (10-12+), a fighter/barbarian, or a fighter wielding a two handed weapon--all of them probably with weapon specialization. A defensively oriented or dual-wielding fighter, even by mid levels, is probably only dealing out 5-15 points of damage per hit (depending upon the degree of defensive optimization). DR 5/anything means a whole lot when it's 33-100% of your damage output per hit.

DR 5/anything stops having meaning pretty quick anyway, when fighter types start doing around 20-30hp per hit.

 

[green slime]

You'll get no sympathy for dual wielders from me; they are MORE likely to have to weapons of differing materials in their hot little hands to start with: they are already wielding half the golf bag!

Seriously do you know many dual wielders who choose to enchant their weapons with the same energy enchantment? Didn't think so.

Pity the poor stick and plank wielder, who has to be burdened with a shield, a weapon, AND a golf bag, and now NEEDS quickdraw...

I'm not concerned with the effect on the fighter, more of the effect on the flavour of the game. But I do feel that IMC, at least, I shall be able to use the new DRs, and avoid the golf bag feeling, EXCEPT for one player, who already goes by the nickname "Skottkärran" (Swedish for "wheelbarrow") because of the huge amount of equipment he lugs around, including a large variety of weapons..."just in case". He is a hopeless case anyway.