D&D 3E/3.5 3.5E Deepwood Sniper??

[TheEvil]

Craig Top Archer does a pretty good job for long range sniping, at least for the range part. Only 5 levels, too.

 

[Rackhir]

I would just use the class as written. That's what we are doing IMC. The class is pretty much fine as is, though I never quite understood the point of giving them "Magic Weapon" 1/day.

 

[Felix]

The class as-is will transfer fine, except for the miss % stuff... and that's fairly easy to house rule into something else.

The problem with the class is that it is very rarely compatible with PC living. The Deepwood Sniper lives for long ranges, right? To take advantage of his 200ft or so range incriment, he needs to be able to Rapid Shot at folks 500' or so away.

The problem is that initial encounter distances are rarely that far away. Granted with some few exceptions, most encounters I've been in have started within 100'. So if the encounter distance isn't lengthened, the DWS is up the creek, since they mostly get long-range bennies.

But if the encounter distance is lengthened, then the rest of the party is just going to be twiddling their thumbs while the bad guys are pared down by the DWS.

Despite how cool snipers are, this class is one of those PrCs that was clearly written for DMs to use against the party, because the encounter mechanics don't suit a PC playing one of these guys.

 

[Rackhir]

The problem with the class is that it is very rarely compatible with PC living. The Deepwood Sniper lives for long ranges, right? To take advantage of his 200ft or so range incriment, he needs to be able to Rapid Shot at folks 500' or so away.

That's hardly the case. First off they give as class skills hinding and moving silently. Second you get both a crit range increase and crit range multiples. Safe poison use, the ability to re-roll an attack roll, even true strike once a day. These are all very nice skills/abilities. The only thing they are missing is the Close Combat shot (NoAoOs) from OoBI, However, in complete Warrior there is a 1st level ranger spell that does CCS one better by letting you actually threaten the 5' squares around you. Since ranger is an ideal class to fullfill the PrC requirements this works out quite nicely.

The long range stuff is just a nice bonus.

 

[moritheil]

I suppose you can really make a party pay for letting its guard down . . . pretty hard to avoid a TPK when using this with a standard-sized group, though. People just start dying (assuming you're sending an enemy party of Deepwood Snipers to start attacking from the aforementioned 500'.) A spellcaster can raise some sort of barrier, perhaps, but the snipers can just keep waiting. The group will be hard-pressed to make it back to a safe area, bearing their dead (slow movement) and being harrassed from a distance (no replenishing spells for you!) whenever they stop to rest.

Despite how cool snipers are, this class is one of those PrCs that was clearly written for DMs to use against the party, because the encounter mechanics don't suit a PC playing one of these guys.

 

[Felix]

Second you get both a crit range increase and crit range multiples. Safe poison use, the ability to re-roll an attack roll, even true strike once a day. These are all very nice skills/abilities.

They sure are, and they synergize best when at range.

Crit multipliers and range are great, but they help the most when you can send volley after volley of arrows down at your target. This is more easily done at range than up close. Yes, it helps within 100' too, but it is likely to apply more when you don't have to be concerned about someone charging and sundering your bow.

The Hiding and MvSil class skills only help in combat when you are far enough away to negate that -20 penalty to hiding after firing... which is why sniping is so hard in this game. Out of combat, yes they're good, but nothing a bunch of other classes don't already have.

True Strike 1/day gives you one shot at full attack bonus from max range incriment. Otherwise it's hardly needed... how often do archers not have rediculous attack bonuses so that they'll hit 4 out of 5 times against matched CR opponents? And archers can't trade in BAB for damage bonuses like melee fighters can, so this ability means that once a day you'll only have a 5% chance of missing rather than a 25% chance.

Poison Use is awesome, no doubt about it.

The thrust is that this PrC is at its most effective in a style of combat that PCs are not suited to, and a style of play that is the decidedly non-hanging-out-with-noisy-cleric type. So a PC DWS would not see his abilities give him all they can and he would have trouble synergizing with the party; that's why I said it's a DM's PrC rather than a PC's.

I suppose you can really make a party pay for letting its guard down . . .

Shoot, they'll have problems even if they keep their guard up. Better hope that the wizard has an [Extended] Rope Trick up his sleeve.

A single DWS can give a party of same-level PCs hell simply because he can decide when and where combat begins and ends; he can fairly easily make sure that no PC spellcasters can regain their spells. Couple that battlefield control with poison, and you have PCs that are well advised to have Sanctuary cast upon them at all times.

 

[mattmaz]

Thanks for the help. The character had just taken the first level of DS. I may change that to Order of the Bow Initiate. I hadn't thought about the encounter distance before. I think that I've only shot past one range increment once so far.

 

[Rackhir]

Thanks for the help. The character had just taken the first level of DS. I may change that to Order of the Bow Initiate. I hadn't thought about the encounter distance before. I think that I've only shot past one range increment once so far.

You really want to take a minimum of 2 levels so you get the 2nd level crit multiplier bonus. Frankly though I would see if you can talk your DM into letting you use the 3.0 OoBI if you want to take levels in that. The "Focused Shot" or what ever they call it, is really not very usesful, given that it takes a full round action to use it. You are almost always better off getting in a full attack than trying to use that single shot. The Focused shot was actually more useful in the 3.0 version when it was sneak attack dice, since you could get them on every arrow and with your dex you had a good chance of going before the enemies at the start of combat when they were flatfooted until their init came up. Not to mention the invisibility/sneak attack possibilities. I think they nerfed one or two other things in the 3.5 OoBI as well.

Crit multipliers and range are great, but they help the most when you can send volley after volley of arrows down at your target. This is more easily done at range than up close. Yes, it helps within 100' too, but it is likely to apply more when you don't have to be concerned about someone charging and sundering your bow.

How is taking OoBI going to prevent sundering your bow? or reduce the chances of it happening? It does give you the no AoO ability, but that just means you don't draw an AoO when firing your bow in a threatened area. You still don't threaten and are no better offf when the victim of a sunder attempt. Rate of fire is the one problem you don't have to worry about as an archer. As has been already pointed out, you will tend to get more full attacks than an melee character, plus Rapid shot. So you generate enough attack rolls to have a better than normal chance of rolling a crit, even given the narrow crit range.

The Hiding and MvSil class skills only help in combat when you are far enough away to negate that -20 penalty to hiding after firing... which is why sniping is so hard in this game. Out of combat, yes they're good, but nothing a bunch of other classes don't already have.

The point is not that they are unique abilities, the point is that they permit you to move around unnoticed and to put your self into advantageous positions/scout things out. Also when acting as a scout you are probably better able to fight your way out of a bad position than a rogue is.

True Strike 1/day gives you one shot at full attack bonus from max range incriment. Otherwise it's hardly needed... how often do archers not have rediculous attack bonuses so that they'll hit 4 out of 5 times against matched CR opponents? And archers can't trade in BAB for damage bonuses like melee fighters can, so this ability means that once a day you'll only have a 5% chance of missing rather than a 25% chance.

It means that you can be sure of hitting if you need to. Also it guarentees that you will confirm a crit, which with the full x5 multiple can be quite devastating. It also works quite well if you are doing Multi-Shot. Since it negates all of the penalties and still leaves you with a substantial bonus to your attack roll. Your point about the archer's attack bonuses vs damage is precisely why I value the crit range and crit multiplier abilities DWS grants. The only enhancement you can get from OoBI is the superior weapon spec, which is only another +2. (though in 3.5 I believe it is no longer range limited).

 

[Felix]

Rackhir: Just to avoid confusion: I'm Felix, that other guy is mattmaz.

Rate of fire is the one problem you don't have to worry about as an archer.

On the contrary, archers have to worry very much about rate of fire. If they are anywhere near melee characters then they must get the heck out of dodge before they become sunder targets. It is only when they have achieved a relatively safe firing position that they can launch volley after volley; they have to be at a distance. If archers are never threatened at the beginning of an encounter, then no, they'll become MIRVs and fire away. But when their ballywick is threatened by a sword, they're in deep, and they have to stop firing to get away to safety.

For Example.

the point is that they permit you to move around unnoticed and to put your self into advantageous positions/scout things out.

I totally agree. They help you get from here to there without being noticed. And as any rogue can tell you, that's a very hard thing to do when you're trooping along with a Fighter and a Cleric in fullplate. All's I'm saying is that life as a "sneak and get in an advantageous position" guy is more easily done when you don't have the baggage of non-sneaky people. I.E., other PCs.

Much more suited for an NPC.

You could say that about many scoutish characters, that they suffer from non-sneaky PCs, but it is simply more severe setback when the scout in question is a long-range guy as well.

It [True Strike] means that you can be sure of hitting if you need to.

Yep. It does all of those things. Which are less helpful to an archer than to a melee guy. It's not a bad thing to have, but it becomes so much better when it's in the hands of an NPC, which is true for anything with restricted use like 1/day abilities. The unseen NPC archer can true strike his poison-arrow Manyshot at the PCs from an ungodly distance and then fade into the background. A PC DWS will always be asking himself "should I save this?", and that might lead to the ability not being used.

It's simply a much better choice for this class to be used by NPCs than PCs, as there are other archer PrCs that are more adjusted for close support rather than sniper cover, and that role synergizes much better with standard adventuring parties.

 

[Rackhir]

Rackhir: Just to avoid confusion: I'm Felix, that other guy is mattmaz.

I forgot to change the text when I was copying the "quote".

On the contrary, archers have to worry very much about rate of fire. If they are anywhere near melee characters then they must get the heck out of dodge before they become sunder targets. It is only when they have achieved a relatively safe firing position that they can launch volley after volley; they have to be at a distance. If archers are never threatened at the beginning of an encounter, then no, they'll become MIRVs and fire away. But when their ballywick is threatened by a sword, they're in deep, and they have to stop firing to get away to safety.

Um, have you ever actually run an archer in 3/3.5? First, while sunder is an option. It is not a commonly used one. Since it tends to ruin the game for the players, which tends to make things less enjoyable for the DM as they won't have any players. Used to the extent that you seem to be advocating for use on archers, NPC should also be attempting to sunder every weapon that PCs use. Since obviously it is far easier for the DM to make new NPCs than it is for the players to acquire/repair weapons. While you could argue this is metagaming on the PCs part, the same would be true of the DM. A DM who makes extensive use of sunder is probably a DM who enjoys screwing your characters.

Most DMs are content to simply try and kill you the old fashioned way and taking AoOs on you for firing your bow in a threatened area. If things were handled the way you seem to be thinking they are all the time, Archers would be completely unusable as a PC type no matter what classes you had. If you were talking realistic combat then yes archers would be completely unusable as PCs. However D&D IS NOT REALISTIC. Nor was LotR, Conan, Elric or any other Fantasy stories. Unrealistic elements are part of what make games like D&D fun. Realistically speaking if you were having to fight 2-3 guys at one time as a single character you'd be dead in all probability.

I totally agree. They help you get from here to there without being noticed. And as any rogue can tell you, that's a very hard thing to do when you're trooping along with a Fighter and a Cleric in fullplate. All's I'm saying is that life as a "sneak and get in an advantageous position" guy is more easily done when you don't have the baggage of non-sneaky people. I.E., other PCs.

Much more suited for an NPC.

You could say that about many scoutish characters, that they suffer from non-sneaky PCs, but it is simply more severe setback when the scout in question is a long-range guy as well.

So you think that hide and move silently are completely useless skills? As are rogues as PCs? Since they are "SaGiaAP" guys as well. That hasn't been my experience. Yes Clerics and guys in full plate are less than completely silent, but that's why you don't usually drag them along when you are trying to be steathy, as any rogue can tell you. Perhaps that's what you've been doing wrong?

Yep. It does all of those things. Which are less helpful to an archer than to a melee guy. It's not a bad thing to have, but it becomes so much better when it's in the hands of an NPC, which is true for anything with restricted use like 1/day abilities. The unseen NPC archer can true strike his poison-arrow Manyshot at the PCs from an ungodly distance and then fade into the background. A PC DWS will always be asking himself "should I save this?", and that might lead to the ability not being used.

Lots of things work better for NPCs operated by an omnicient-omnipotent DM. However, there is no reason why a PC character can't use the tactics that you describe. The possibility that an ability might not get used does not make it worthless.

It's simply a much better choice for this class to be used by NPCs than PCs, as there are other archer PrCs that are more adjusted for close support rather than sniper cover, and that role synergizes much better with standard adventuring parties.

What other classes? There's OoBI, which nominally speaking is the only wotc archery prestige class in 3.5 aside from Craigetop Sniper?/Archer? which IS a useless class to a PC. Even in 3.0 the only other Wotc archery prestige class aside from DWS and OoBI was Peerless Archer and I've yet to meet a DM who was stupid enough to let someone use that class in a campaign. Even I'd have to admit that class was broken.

As far as non Wotc classes go, I've had a hard enough time just persuading my DMs to let me use all the stuff in the splatbooks/complete series. Most are really leery of letting you pull one out of "Joe's D20 Book of Munchkin Prestige Classes", never mind Frank's Legolas PrC out of the House Rules section on EN World. I left one campaign in part because I couldn't convince the DM that taking DWS levels at lv 17+ wouldn't be "unbalancing" and this was in a campaign where the bonus damage wasn't even multiplied on critical hits.