D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5e] Will they fix the other H spell?

[Cassander]

I'm not talking about Haste, Harm, or Heal. I'm talking about the lowest-level save-or-die spell in the game, the boon to low-level clerics everywhere: Hold Person.

It's been a second level cleric spell in every edition of D&D, but I think it might be time to go. It's too powerful. A 3rd-level cleric can take out a 9th level fighter with it very easily, under the right circumstances. And even under the wrong circumstances, it's still pretty good. If ya don't get a chance to coup de grace, ya still can take out someone for several rounds.

It seems that people generally agree that clerics are the highest-powered class in 3e... do they really need this spell at 2nd level anymore? How about bumping it up to third level, like for wizards. I think we can leave this sacred cow of D&D behind and tone down both clerics and save-or-die spells, which seem to be a bit too potent in 3e.

 

[Henry]

I love it myself, and will note that it already has been toned down - it used to affect up to three opponents!!!

I would have no problem moving it to 3rd level for clerics, but removing it entirely or doing something counterintuitive like making it do DEX reduction, is going too far. It's a sacred cow I am unwilling to slaughter.

 

[hong]

Heh. Have a look at rebuke, a 2nd level shaman spell in OA. Stuns one target (any type, not just humanoid) with a thunderous shout for 1d4+1 rounds, Will save to negate.

It's not quite as uber as hold person (you can't coup de grace a stunned opponent, and rebuking is not subtle), but it's still remarkably good; taking someone out for 2-5 rounds can be as good as killing them, especially if they're alone. The shaman in my campaign has been putting it to very good use against big opponents.

 

[Cassander]

Actually, didn't it affect up to four opponents, though with slightly weakened saves? I remember that 1-4 in the first printing of the 2e PHB was changed to 1d4 in the 2e revised PHB, which was an error. Talk about a TPK!

And I don't think it would be bad as a 3rd level spell, since I don't see Wizards abusing it a lot as is.

 

[Henry]

Actually, didn't it affect up to four opponents, though with slightly weakened saves? I remember that 1-4 in the first printing of the 2e PHB was changed to 1d4 in the 2e revised PHB, which was an error. Talk about a TPK!

And I don't think it would be bad as a 3rd level spell, since I don't see Wizards abusing it a lot as is.

Back in the olden days, (1e) a cleric could choose:
One opponent at a -2 penalty to their save
two opponents at a -1 penalty to their saves
three opponents at even save vs. spell.

Against fighters and general humanoids, it was NASTY!!!!

 

[Darklone]

I wouldn't change hold person as long as Colour Spray and Sleep stay the same...

If you change it, you should change ALL save or die spells in D&D. Wouldn't be that bad IMHO.

 

[Ferox4]

Back in the olden days, (1e) a cleric could choose:
One opponent at a -2 penalty to their save
two opponents at a -1 penalty to their saves
three opponents at even save vs. spell.

Against fighters and general humanoids, it was NASTY!!!!

Yes, that was a devastating spell in 1e....As noted, they've all ready diminished the spell for 3e, and I see absolutely no need to tinker with it. So the Cleric,Sorcereror Wizard has to expend a Dispel Magic - isn't that what Dispel Magic is for?

 

[Murrdox]

Generally I don't have a problem with Hold Person either. It's already limited in that it has to affect humanoids. Depending on what world you play in (we play in Forgotten Realms) that means there's a lot of outsiders you can't affect. Secondly, for all practical purposes, it is mostly an anti-fighter device, since most other classes have a pretty good chance to save against it.

If as a DM, your Cleric is abusing the "Hold Person/Coup de Grace" combo, then you might consider giving the NPCs that the party is fighting the "Iron Will" feat.

 

[Darklone]

Or use elves. That +2 against enchantments and perhaps one level of wizard gives them a nice chance to save.

Btw: I think Blindness is sometimes even worse than Hold Person. Against Hold Person: Use many not so strong opponents and the spell is futile.

 

[Aloïsius]

It's the "top of the heap" syndrom.

At the same spell level, A is a bit better than B which is better than C which is better than D, etc.

"A is broken ! Look at Z ! There's no reason to prepare Z when everyone just take A !"

A proceeds to get nerf... errated to be on par with Z. Even a bit below, actually. Or simply house-ruled out.

"B is broken ! Look at Z ! etc."

B is removed and cease to exist.

"C is broken !, etc."

C is deleted.

"D is broken !"

D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, etc. are all suppressed from the game.

Once spellcasters don't have spells anymore, everyone is happy, since magic-users no longer have unrealistic, munchkins abilities.

It's not like fleeing from a fighter could be a "tumble or die" situation, eh, 1d12+7 damage from a two-handed greataxe is not going to be lethal to a CR 3 pest...