3 questions

[Hypersmurf]

I understand what you are saying, but then that makes 3 caster levels occurring before the first jump.

No, it doesn't. A Deific Vengeance somehow cast at Caster Level 1 would deal 0d6 damage, not 1d6.

How many '2 caster levels' do you have at CL 1? The answer is "None" - hence no d6 damage.

How many '2 caster levels' do you have at CL 2? One.

Similarly, a spell with a range of Close (25ft + 5ft/2 levels) has a range of 25 feet at CL 1, 30 feet at CL 2 and CL 3, 35 feet at CL 4 and CL 5, etc.

The first 'jump' occurs after 2 levels (the rarely-seen CL 0, and CL 1), and then jumps occur every two levels after that.

It's why spells like Divine Favor specify "minimum of 1".

"Calling upon the strength and wisdom of a deity, you gain a +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls for every three caster levels you have (at least +1, maximum +3)."

If it didn't state "at least +1", then a first or second level Cleric would get no benefit from casting the spell. He doesn't have three caster levels. As it's written, however, the bonus is +1 up to CL 5, then +2 up to CL 8, then +3 at CL 9 and higher.

I just want to understand how the meaning of the words could mean that three caster levels have to go by before you fulfill the requirement of "per two caster levels."

After four caster levels, you fulfil the requirement of 'two caster levels, twice'.

-Hyp.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

How many '2 caster levels' do you have at CL 1? The answer is "None".

How many '2 caster levels' do you have at CL 2? One.
.

Okay, now this makes more sense.

It's really saying 1d6 per "complete pairs of caster levels"

Yes, I realize that isn't what it actually says, but just putting it into words that makes sense to my mind.

If that's the case, then I'll ammend my earlier position and agree with the 1d6. However, I would add that they could word that a little better. Or at least give an example between a third and fourth level caster. I don't think the way I read the words is really that far fetched. I understand it better with Hyp's example ... but the books could be a little more clear.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's really saying 1d6 per "complete pairs of caster levels"

Exactly.

They just used the common shorthand form of "complete pair"... that is, "2".

-Hyp.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

It's why spells like Divine Favor specify "minimum of 1".

So ... then .. is this right?

For Divine Favor:
CL - Mod
1    +1
2    +1
3    +1
4    +1
5    +1
6    +2
7    +2
8    +2
9    +3
10   +3
11   +3
12   +4
13   +4
14   +4
15   +5
16   +5
17   +5
18   +6
19   +6
20   +6

They need to put the minimum in because the spell is gained before a complete set of "three levels" is gained. Wow .. its like a lightbulb of truth just went on in my head.

And if it is, then Zen, this is proof that there is no stupid question. All these years of D&D and the groups I've played in did it wrong every time.

Wow. That's actually kinda embarassing. Sorry.

 

[nycdan]

#1. Wait for action.
#2. 1d6 damage.
#3. Normal initiative roll.

The only one that's really debatable is #3. Certainly you can't ready actions outside of combat. Perhaps a DM could rule that surprise is in effect, if the orcs have no idea what they're coming up on (personally for that I'd require something more subtle, like the sound of a wounded animal, orc lady-of-the-night, etc.). Hence it sounds like the orcs know you're there, no surprise, normal initiative roll. Your ability to choose the defensive site should be advantage enough.

I agree with the interpretations of the rules, but I find that it doesn't make logical sense. If a party is prepared with bows readied, and draw out the orcs into a clearing where they have at least 10 feet of open space, how would the orcs reach the party to melee before the party releases the arrows. If the orcs had javelins or other types or 'ready-to-launch' ranged weapons, I would support rolling initiative, but in this case, it seems to me that the party should have the first shot.

Someone mentioned a house rule of only allowing a move action in the first round of combat which helps make more sense of this to me. It just doesn't feel right to me to allow initiative to the orcs in this situation, unless there was a significant bonus to the party's rolls and they just plain rolled bad perhaps.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

#1. Wait for action.
#2. 1d6 damage.
#3. Normal initiative roll.

The only one that's really debatable is #3. Certainly you can't ready actions outside of combat. Perhaps a DM could rule that surprise is in effect, if the orcs have no idea what they're coming up on (personally for that I'd require something more subtle, like the sound of a wounded animal, orc lady-of-the-night, etc.). Hence it sounds like the orcs know you're there, no surprise, normal initiative roll. Your ability to choose the defensive site should be advantage enough.

This is how I'd rule it as well. #1 and 2 are clear by the rules. Alerting the orcs gives up surprise. Roll init as usual.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I agree with the interpretations of the rules, but I find that it doesn't make logical sense. If a party is prepared with bows readied, and draw out the orcs into a clearing where they have at least 10 feet of open space, how would the orcs reach the party to melee before the party releases the arrows.

The orcs don't have to melee. Or they can attempt to charge if they're close enough. The point is that they have a chance to act, whatever that may be, the same as the PCs. The PCs intentionally gave up surprise when they started beating war drums in the trees!

It just doesn't feel right to me to allow initiative to the orcs in this situation

Whyever not? The orcs were alerted intentionally. Now, if the PCs had, as dcollins suggested, tried to trick the orcs into thinking there was a wounded animal out there, then perhaps the orcs would have gone out unprepared for an ambush. These orcs heard drums. They're going to be heading out into the trees armed to the teeth and ready for a fight, eyes scanning the wood for sign of the foes they know are there.

 

[Stalker0]

In this scenario, instead of activating the drums first, you could each fire your weapon and then the Bard could do his drums last. This would be the surprise round, and then you roll initiative.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So ... then .. is this right?

Up until CL 11, it's fine. After that, you're breaking the 'maximum +3' clause.

But you've grasped the 'per three caster levels' concept just fine.

-Hyp.

 

[Legildur]

I agree with the interpretations of the rules, but I find that it doesn't make logical sense. If a party is prepared with bows readied, and draw out the orcs into a clearing where they have at least 10 feet of open space, how would the orcs reach the party to melee before the party releases the arrows. If the orcs had javelins or other types or 'ready-to-launch' ranged weapons, I would support rolling initiative, but in this case, it seems to me that the party should have the first shot.

You could always apply a circumstance bonus to the PCs' initiative roll. Not a core rule solution though....

Someone mentioned a house rule of only allowing a move action in the first round of combat which helps make more sense of this to me. It just doesn't feel right to me to allow initiative to the orcs in this situation, unless there was a significant bonus to the party's rolls and they just plain rolled bad perhaps.

That was me. And I could have sworn it was an 'optional rule' and not just a 'house rule', but damned if I can find it in the PHB or DMG. Anyone else know where we would have got it from? (because I'm sure I read it here on EnWorld).