3 reasons why the design team shouldn't visit ENWorld

I notice that the two extremes here are apparently you have to interact with your messageboard fans constantly or you have to never consider their opinions at all.

Surely there is no one who actually does either?

WotC designers DO hang out in the forums, for instance. Just not all the time.

Some of us are jousting at straw men here.
 

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I notice that the two extremes here are apparently you have to interact with your messageboard fans constantly or you have to never consider their opinions at all.

Surely there is no one who actually does either?

WotC designers DO hang out in the forums, for instance. Just not all the time.

Some of us are jousting at straw men here.
Actually, I would be willing to bet that yes, there are folks who take either extreme, which is why I mentioned GW. Their stance on playtesters and fans is pretty easy to confirm, look for the issues immediately preceding the 'Fatter Dwarf' era. Andy Chambers was one of the most vocal in this regard.

WotC designers may hang out in these forums, or they may not. Unless they post then knowing if they are lurking would require constant surveillance of who is in which forum. And unless they post there is no reason to think that any matters discussed on the forums are being weighed in any manner.

And, unless they post, their presence here matters less than if they did.

Nor, I think, do many of the posts here indicate either of the extremes you mention. Certainly those of Eric Mona do not.

So please, stop yelling at your straw man, you'll hurt his feelings. :angel:

The Auld Grump
 

Some of us are jousting at straw men here.

Yes, and one of the persistent straw men in this thread is:

"The guy said there is no value to forums."

I think the real point was:

"The guy cannot create well if he reads his forums."

He makes a living off his creativity. If reading all the negative comments in his forum ruins his afternoon, he is leaving money on the table. I've heard similar comments from Scott Kurtz (and his other artist friends in the webcomics.com podcast). Few people can deal with unfiltered attacks on a regular basis. And note that he isn't getting zero feedback; he just doesn't want it from a large, anonymous group of people who may or may not have something useful to say. His feedback comes from experts that he knows. Considering the number of threads that end with "it depends on what you like", it isn't surprising that time spent synthesizing forum content might be time better spent creating new content.

Games Workshop, Paizo, and WotC are not in the same situation. For one, people complain about what COMPANY NAME did and not what DESIGNER NAME did. Even if the designers interact with fans, nothing they do occurs in a vacuum. Furthermore, they have other, structured methods for getting feedback (playtests and beta versions) that a small time creator might not have. Playtest and beta feedback will be structured and easily synthesized.

Finally, larger companies have processes that encourage multiple view points in the design phase. Nothing is published that hasn't had at least three different experts making contributions. Not that experts aren't fallible, but game companies have incentives to, you know, hire people who design things other people like.
 

Xechnao, I get that you would prefer to limit the terms of the discussion to the period between this moment and the announcement of Pathfinder, but my point is that Paizo's relationship with its audience, the give-and-take between creators, editors, and publishers that takes place on our messageboards (and elsewhere) has been part of the company's philosophy from the very beginning. It helped to guide our stewardship of Dragon and Dungeon, and it is even a part of our retail sales and customer service operations.

Admittedly, the launch of the Pathfinder Adventure Path and later the Pathfinder RPG brought the company to a new plateau in terms of sales of our own brands, but our philosophy of listening to the readers and considering their comments in our design and publishing choices has carried through. If anything, it has become an even more important part of the way we do business.

I willingly concede that the Pathfinder RPG audience has yet to go through something as tumultuous as an edition change, and should the time for such a thing ever come about I expect a lot of current champions to feel as though we have left them behind or that we have somehow betrayed them. We've been through several edition changes of several games since the Internet hit big, and it's clearly part of the cycle of these things (and should be taken into account by publishers when it comes to marketing, community outreach, etc.).

That said, if past practice is any indicator, should we ever go about such a plan I suspect we would roll out a huge playtest effort in order to guage community interest and acceptance of some of our ideas, and then make modifications as necessary. We did this throughout the Alpha and Beta Playtest periods for the existing Pathfinder game, to great effect. The commentary of the player network--positive and negative--influenced the design choices that went into the final game.

Of course, even today you can find people who feel that we were dismissive of fan suggestions, or that we didn't test the math hard enough, or that we went too far (or not far enough), or whatever. Lots of people have lots of complaints about the playtest, but the fact of the matter is that reader feedback had a huge influence on the game, and we were so pleased with the public playtest's ability to find errors, generate cool suggestions, and get people excited about the game that I honestly cannot image us doing another major RPG effort (a new "edition" of Pathfinder or otherwise) that didn't implement a huge public playtest.

Just like there is a lot of "static" in a public playtest, there is a lot of "static" in the discussion of just about every Pathfinder-related topic discussed on the internet. Posters have their own biases, their own pet peeves, their own soft spots, and so on. Trying to plug all of that stuff into a spreadsheet and run your life (or your business) according to the result would be impossible and insane.

But there is a lot to be learned if one listens closely through the static, and I think those lessons can lead to better products from the perspective of publishers and the public.

--Erik
 
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One final point that I didn't see mentioned:

4) It can be legally dangerous.

I get your thought there, but the protect themselves.

So what happens if I start a thread about the Gerbil People, some fancy new race, and then WoTC releases a source book about the Gerbil People? If I can show that the developers read these forums, I can claim that they stole my idea. Even if they didn't!

Nope. Check the Terms of Service for WotC's forums. I expect you'll find a piece of boilerplate, to the effect that if you post it on their forums, they have rights to use it.

This is not present to allow them to steal your ideas, but to protect them from claims they did.
 

If you're really good at interacting with your fandom, some of them will even cheer you on when you get angry and rant. Post 76 of this forum topic ,from another game I play, is how you rant right. (Warning: does contain non-grandma-friendly material)
 

I may not be a Pathfinder Fan, but I have noticed that those that are, are VERY LOYAL to pathfinder. In some instances FAR MORE than just about any other game system. I would attribute some of that to the personal interest the game creators and producer take in their forums and in response to their fans. In that light, I think Mr. Mona has a pretty good grasp of what is working to create such loyal fans and what does not.
 


I couldn't agree more with the OP and the idea of having a "paid person" to post; I did that around 2004 so I could focus on writing my AD&D modules; this is the first time I've been on a webforum in six years. Let me just open up another tab here and see wh...

Oh...oh god.

:eek:
 

Is there still some timeframe during which I can expect our evil, supportive fans to turn on us? Should I be worried that 8 years of an active community is going to come back three-fold with 24 years worth of bad blood once we make a mistake?

O.M.G. I've had about as much of your attitude as I can take Erik. Pathfinder overcooked my dinner and caused the snowstorm we had here this week. It's all your evil successful company's fault and I'm blaming you! RRAAAARRRRRGGGGHHH!!!!!!1!!!

;)
 

I just skimmed the blog post in question, but my overwhelming impression is that this guy is really saying, "I have a hard time not taking anonymous comments attacking my writing personally." I'm not impressed by it as a position.

Honestly, I can accept it as a personal philosophy, just not as a universal one. Especially when he outright acknowledges that many creators do have close relationships with their fans and forums.
 

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