30th-level PC versus kingdom--who wins?

[Jürgen Hubert]

Yup. Boring. Like raiding hell, travelling the multiverse, and trying to kill Demogorgon and the like.

Been there, done that.

Really, at this stage of the campaign the PCs have likely done things like that for 30 levels.

If you have the skills that is. But having primary spellcasters and epic level crusaders come after you would mean a nice change of pace. Rough on your city though.

You are still thinking in terms of physical combat when it is social combat you should be worried about.

Just because you are sitting on the throne doesn't mean that you actually run everything in your nation directly - or that everyone tells you what is really going on. Becoming an effective ruler without being seen as a tyrant will be quite a challenge. Besides, the old power centers (merchant houses, noble families) are still out there and they are not likely to stop their scheming just because there's a new guy at the top - but you can't just get rid of them because they are the only ones with the skills to keep the country running.

You are sitting targets. You gotta stop those who want to dethrone you before they mass their attack.

Again, you are thinking too much in terms of violence. In such a scenario, the PCs have likely proven to be so powerful that most others will realize that using violence to remove them isn't going to work.

Instead, those people will attempt to make the PCs unpopular enough that they will leave out of their own accord (if they have a strong sense of ethics) or else see what they can get away with to further their own agendas.

And saving the universe, plane etc... Yeah. Petty.

Like I said: Been there, done that.

Yeah, hold an election, then leave.

What's wrong in letting the locals decide who they want and what kind of government they want?

As Real Word history has shown, holding an election does not automatically translate into a stable and prosperous democracy. Even in the best cases (i.e. post-WWII Germany) it took a lengthy occupation and large-scale social engineering to pull it off. The same will even be more true of the typical pseudo-medieval D&D setting where most people haven't even heard of democracy. If all the PCs do is call for election and then get out of the place, they will likely find once they return that the nation has collapsed under its internal squabbles, a new strongman has arisen in place of the old, or a larger neighboring nation has used its weakness to occupy it.

In the meantime, thousands of people have died or become refugees. And it is their fault because they couldn't be bothered to do a better job when they had the chance. So, do they really want this on their conscience?

 

[JoeGKushner]

But how about in a points of light campaign?

No one might ever know that it was the players.

Sure, (anti-)heroes of sufficient level can conquer towns, villages, and even nations.

It is a fact that no one lives in a vaccuum. By doing so, they attract attention of others. Political power consisits of far more than just having the biggest fireball on the block. Then there are other values important within a society as well. For the sake of stability, trade must be allowed to flourish, popular religions tolerated, and allies humoured.

While a high level spellcaster may have the metaphysical power to achieve his will locally while present, how faithful are his followers when it really comes to the crunch? How many will try to usurp his power base, mismanage affairs in his name, corrupt his government, and provide assistance to the opposition-in-exile? How wise a ruler is he? How many people can the spellcaster personally scry upon in a day?

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

As a good example for running political adventures - especially for high-level PCs - I recommend reading up any of the Discworld novels dealing with Ankh-Morpork.

The Patrician is an extremely capable character. He is a highly trained assassin who could probably easily personally kill all those who threaten his city.

And yet, he doesn't - because he realizes that that would in the long run be detrimental to the well-being and prosperity of the city. Ankh-Morpork attracts a lot of wealth and industry - precisely because so many people realize that the government is not arbitrary and malicious and that as long as they adhere to the few rules that exist they can pursue their own interest and seek their fortunes there.

If the Patrician were to simply kill or imprison anyone who might threaten his rule or the city, then this would create a climate of fear that would cause all the wealth to flee the city - after all, everyone who has attained some degree of power would then worry whether the Patrician would come after him next.

Thus, the Patrician keeps to certain unspoken rules, and everyone breathes easier. That doesn't mean he is loved, but most sane people recognize that he is far better than the alternatives - and as a result, the city has prospered beyond all imagination. That doesn't mean the Patrician doesn't deal with threats to the city, however - but until they have shown their hands openly, he does so through subtle manipulation of others instead of brute force.

Finding the right balance, the right approach, and the right wisdom to lead a city or a nation is quite a challenge - often more so than just facing another powerful monster. And, like I've said, it makes for a nice change of pace.

 

[Eidalac]

Hrm.

Setting dependent, I'd think.

My personal archetypal Big Bad Spellcaster, Nevar, could conquer most worlds by 20th - of course, this also involves him having become immortal hundreds to thousands of years ago and using the time to insulate himself into the political structures of the world to the point where he is a puppet master to the kings and such.

The more high to epic level NPCs in the world, the slower he has to move, and the longer it takes.


Now, to get back to scales a player would be interested in:

A melee type (or any non caster, really), with either good Diplomacy or Leadership could be fielding significant armies by the mid teens. Once his level is near to equal to that of the highest NPC defenders of a given town/nation, he should be able to at least take on any single group he likes with a good chance of victory - he deals with the leveled NPCs from the top down while his army cleans up the basic guys.

Provided he doesn't do anything to incite an alliance against him, he wins.


Spellcaster get more fun options, of course.

If you really want to raise some hell... open some Portals to Hell.

Hillarity ensues.

Of course, depending on the setting, you'll have to do some work before and after to deal with the defenses that have prevented this from happening before, since once you open a hellgate, people start to notice rather fast.


For dealing with just a small-ish town, the undead bomb is likely the easiest and fastest route, and requires the fewst levels, but it doesn't stand up well once you start spawning enough for the good guys to notice.

 

[monboesen]

I'd say that a 15th level druid who at that level has acces to earthquake and control weather/wind can wipe out most settlements easily. It might take some days, but there isn't much that can stop him.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I'd say that a 15th level druid who at that level has acces to earthquake and control weather/wind can wipe out most settlements easily. It might take some days, but there isn't much that can stop him.

How about an 18th level wizard, or a 19th level cleric, an epic barbarian or fighter?

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

How about an 18th level wizard, or a 19th level cleric, an epic barbarian or fighter?

A wizard or cleric, sure. Barbarians or fighters might have more problems on their own - especially if they aren't good in the stealth or mobility department.

If you can collapse a large building on them, even these guys might have trouble - while they will survive the initial collapse, eventually they will starve. And since you can see them coming, such traps are easier to prepare...

 

[JDJblatherings]

So the community killer PC has his wild romp...how does he surive the encounter with the party of characters that consider him a typical encounter that are bound to show up?

PCs always seem to be able to find appropriately scaled adventures and foes, why not NPCs?

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

So the community killer PC has his wild romp...how does he surive the encounter with the party of characters that consider him a typical encounter that are bound to show up?

I would use a different approach.

Let's just assume that for the time being, there isn't anyone who is able to fight him. Instead, ordinary citizens will wet their pants at his approach, grovel, and say things like "Please don't hurt me! I have a family to support!" Small children will cry at his approach. The mood of any party he tries to attend will be completely wrecked the moment he shows up. The rulers of other cities will empty their treasuries in an attempt to appease him. Of course, this will ruin their cities and cause widespread poverty - does he care?

So congratulations, oh Slayer of Cities. Are you happy now that you are feared across the continent?

And if not, what will make you happy?


Spend a session or two exploring this question. Eventually, the PC should find a goal more worthy of an epic hero than just random destruction. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[robconley]

One trick I used in my long running fantasy campaign is make the players come up with the solution. To do this I ran theme campaigns.

For example I had a campaign where everyone was a city guard. Everyone was a fighter. Through the course of that campaign they ran into the community rampaging party. And let me tell you they came up with some interesting solution. Mostly in the area of tactics with a few bits of equipment that aided them in executing those tactics. Basically doing for City Guards what that one DM did with his killer kobolds.

The players were looking over what spells had verbal, somatic, and material components. Which of the three they can hinder the most. Odds of X guards scoring a hit, etc, etc.

The next campaign were we want back to adventuring. The PCs respected the guards a helluva a lot more.

So finally if everyone here is talking about the problem of a epic level PC ramaging destroying community. Turn the problem on its head.

You are a member of that community with typical mix of classes and levels. How do you stop an epic party from ramaging. Remember sometimes it not actually about winning but making the victory so costly that they just do something else that is more profitable use of their time. Also things like attrition tactics can get you to the point where you can win or make the epics back off. Eventually a mage is going to run of spells and stuff, get him that point then you have options. People need to sleep. A 100 crossbowmen fire someone is going to crit.

My games were run using GURPS so I don't have much in the way of specifics but any RPG system can be revese engineered this way. If a world of people is forced to live by the rules of that system, what would they do. What would YOU do.