36th level epic characters...best combos?

[Voadam]

Here is one path for a warrior wizard

two levels of monk
two levels of hong's martial artist
six levels of wizard
ten levels of witch hunter (from OA)

That is +16 BAB at level 20 for max iteartive attacks all weapon proficiencies evasion uncanny dodge and great saving throws and 11th level spellcasting

Now pick up 11 levels lore master

and either five more of lore master or five of archmage.

27th level casting, max iterative attacks and your spell DCs can be insane.

Witch hunter does not have regular progression of any class abilities including spellcasting so by the rules it is not that good for epic progression.

 

[Apok]

Allow me to second ruleslawyers initial concept, but I would typically go Evoker and grab Automatic Quicken Spell three times ASAP, but yours is an excellent build and to each their own.

The beautiful thing about a Specialist 5/Archmage 5/Red Wizard X is that, within their School, nothing can even come close. They are, without a doubt, the most powerful (if not the most versatile) wizards in D&D. The best part is, every single class, ability, and feat are perfectly logical and interrelated so the concept is solid from both a mechanics and a roleplaying perspective. Fortunately, few campaigns make it to these levels and even fewer would allow a Red Wizard as an acceptable PrC (unless you are running a specifically non-good campaign they are hard to justify).

 

[thol]

first, i'd like to say thanks to everyone who has posted their suggestions. some good ideas for me to consider.

second, i'd like to say that those who think this is a ridiculous campaign can cool down. we are testing the Epic level rules to see what we like and dislike about them.

the enemies we will be facing include a 50th level paladin and numerous other jacked up enemies. there will only be 5 of us in the 'evil' party. we are newly brought to the plane, so we only have what is on us. no cohorts, no followers. we may have a chance to coax some baddies to follow us, but there's no guarantee. this is not some 'smackdown' game to just let us kill anything we see. i know my DM, and he wouldn't think of making it easy on us.

this is a serious thread to broaden my thinking when it came to creating epic characters. there's a TON of combos that work well together and make RP sense.

so far i've checked out the archer road, and it looks pretty sweet. i've got a great background concept, too. my next thing is to look into an evil epic druid. that sounds even more fun to play

keep those ideas coming!

 

[Numion]

Slight tangent here - is there any particular reason why you didn't take Improved Spellcasting at all? It seems like it would be a pretty useful feat. Was it just that you didn't have enough feats to do so, or do you consider it unnecessary? I'm curious because I'm statting up a very high level NPC wizard as an experiment and I planned on taking IS a few times. Any advice?

I would guess that 10+ level slots aren't as useful for a transmuter. There's no point in empowering or otherwise metamagicking his spells. Evoker, however, might find IS very useful.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Slight tangent here - is there any particular reason why you didn't take Improved Spellcasting at all? It seems like it would be a pretty useful feat. Was it just that you didn't have enough feats to do so, or do you consider it unnecessary? I'm curious because I'm statting up a very high level NPC wizard as an experiment and I planned on taking IS a few times. Any advice?

You're the creator of Super-AC Man, right, Bill? I'd trust any choice you made from a powergaming perspective...

Seriously, though, this character didn't take Improved Spell Capacity for two reasons: First, he's a bit of a one-trick (well, technically TWO-trick) pony, focusing on high save DCs and multiple quickened spells in a single round. With his specialized school, multiple high-DC spells in a round means DEATH for anything (very few beings are immune to disintegration, polymorphing, AND petrification). Second, he gets enough mileage out of circle magic (since he can Heighten and/or metamagic his spells up to 20th effective level) that Improved Spell Capacity wouldn't be all that great a boost. AQS is useful because Quicken is a HUGE hit at +4 effective levels.

I'd say Improved Spell Capacity generally is pretty good, although taking it once is far inferior to taking Improved Metamagic once. Taking ISC twice might be worth it, if you have a VERY high casting ability score and are considering the Improved Heighten Spell feat. Taking ISC three times is definitely worth it if you have the slots, a high casting ability score, and are using heightened spells frequently.

In general, though, it really hurts to lose all of those feat slots. My feat priorities for an "average" epic wizard would be the following, in order:

1) Epic Spellcasting (ward spells are your friend)
2) Multispell
3) Spell Stowaway (time stop)
4) EITHER Improved Metamagic or Improved Spell Capacity, if you meet the above criteria

... and then on down. Throw in Improved Heighten somewhere along the line if you like.

NOTE: Several of the other epic caster feats could be useful, depending on your character concept. Epic Spell Focus is a must for a school specialist. Spell Opportunity would be huge for a rogue/wizard or arcane trickster type. Improved Combat Casting is a must for a caster who's likely to be stupid enough to get anywhere within reach of a fighter-type. Permanent Emanation (anti-magic field) is deadly enough to be munchkin, especially if you pull the super-munchkin trick of using the archmage's mastery of shaping high arcana to put a hole in the field surrounding you.

I can easily see a wizard (not Red Wizard) build that took the following feats past 20th level:

21) Spell Stowaway (time stop)
23) Epic Spellcasting
24) Epic Spell Penetration
26) IS
27) IS
29) IS
30) IS
32) IS
33) Multispell
35) IS
36) Multispell or Improved Heighten

This would be a pretty mighty caster as well. Assuming an effective Int of 46 (quite possible to achieve at this level), you'd have access to an additional 5 10th, 4 11th, 4 12th, 4 13th, 4 14th, and 3 15th-level spell slots! You could fling multiply super-metamagicked spells around, or just Heighten the bejesus out of your spells.

 

[Bill Muench]

You're the creator of Super-AC Man, right, Bill? I'd trust any choice you made from a powergaming perspective...

LOL... I used to be really, really bad when it came to powergaming. If you ever want to know how to totally twink out a character in Heroes Unlimited, I'm your man. These days I'd like to think I'm a lot better at keeping characters in-line with the rest of the party and with what the DM is comfortable with.

I'm mainly curious because at this point I have no real-world experience with Epic level stuff. I've been working on a homebrew for a long time now and I decided that I'd try to stat up some of my NPCs who should be epic. First one is a Worm That Walks who is one of the most powerful wizards on the planet. He's one of the guys that helped create arcane magic in ages past. He isn't a specialist, and I'm trying to decide what classes to give him. Probably a WizX/Archmage5, with a total of about 40-45 levels. I thought about Arcane Lord, but I don't like the fact that they don't get any bonus feats (other than a few metamagic ones).

Seriously, though, this character didn't take Improved Spell Capacity for two reasons: First, he's a bit of a one-trick (well, technically TWO-trick) pony, focusing on high save DCs and multiple quickened spells in a single round. With his specialized school, multiple high-DC spells in a round means DEATH for anything (very few beings are immune to disintegration, polymorphing, AND petrification). Second, he gets enough mileage out of circle magic (since he can Heighten and/or metamagic his spells up to 20th effective level) that Improved Spell Capacity wouldn't be all that great a boost. AQS is useful because Quicken is a HUGE hit at +4 effective levels.

I had a feeling that some of it had to do with Circle casting. And Numion makes a good point that since your RW is a transmuter, metamagicking spells isn't as useful for you except to raise the DC with Heighten. Most of your effective ones are basically save or die, or save or frog.

I'd say Improved Spell Capacity generally is pretty good, although taking it once is far inferior to taking Improved Metamagic once. Taking ISC twice might be worth it, if you have a VERY high casting ability score and are considering the Improved Heighten Spell feat. Taking ISC three times is definitely worth it if you have the slots, a high casting ability score, and are using heightened spells frequently.

In general, though, it really hurts to lose all of those feat slots. My feat priorities for an "average" epic wizard would be the following, in order:

1) Epic Spellcasting (ward spells are your friend)
2) Multispell
3) Spell Stowaway (time stop)
4) EITHER Improved Metamagic or Improved Spell Capacity, if you meet the above criteria

... and then on down. Throw in Improved Heighten somewhere along the line if you like.

NOTE: Several of the other epic caster feats could be useful, depending on your character concept. Epic Spell Focus is a must for a school specialist. Spell Opportunity would be huge for a rogue/wizard or arcane trickster type. Improved Combat Casting is a must for a caster who's likely to be stupid enough to get anywhere within reach of a fighter-type. Permanent Emanation (anti-magic field) is deadly enough to be munchkin, especially if you pull the super-munchkin trick of using the archmage's mastery of shaping high arcana to put a hole in the field surrounding you.

I can easily see a wizard (not Red Wizard) build that took the following feats past 20th level:

21) Spell Stowaway (time stop)
23) Epic Spellcasting
24) Epic Spell Penetration
26) IS
27) IS
29) IS
30) IS
32) IS
33) Multispell
35) IS
36) Multispell or Improved Heighten

This would be a pretty mighty caster as well. Assuming an effective Int of 46 (quite possible to achieve at this level), you'd have access to an additional 5 10th, 4 11th, 4 12th, 4 13th, 4 14th, and 3 15th-level spell slots! You could fling multiply super-metamagicked spells around, or just Heighten the bejesus out of your spells.

Good advice there (and the mastery of shaping ability with Anti-Magic Field is just brutal!). Thanks for the insight!

 

[Hand of Vecna]

My suggestion -- The Pale Commander, a Fighter 8/Sorcerer 8/Spellsword 10/Pale Master 10. There was an article in October '02 Dragon detailing this combo, had some new Necromantic feats in there, to.

NE Rogue 13/Druid 13/Shifter 10 is another one I'd recommend -- Greater Wild Shape into most anything, coupled with some decent spells and a good smattering of Rogue abilities. Max out Bluff, Diguise, Hide, Listen, and Spot skills to both insure you suprise those goody-goody Paladins and avoid being surprised yourself. Turn into a fly or other tiny insect, crawl into a person's ear/mouth/nose, then shift into a Huge Fire Elemental...

LE Fighter 18/Monk 18 would make a kick-ass Martial Artist, though you'd of course need to figure out why a LE guy is working for CE Lolth...

Might want to look at the Unholy Ravager Epic PrC (from the Epic issues of Dragon) for a possible path, to.

 

[Numion]

Anyone iterested in Epic characters should check out the dragon magazine with the epic prestige classes. I doubt there's any point in making such classes though; they're just normal classes on steroids. But they are an intresting read in any case. Perfected Ones make for some nice saves. Arcane Lord PrC is also intresting for any mage.

I'm actually going to allow the OotBI in my group to pursue the Master of the Bor PrC. Normally I wouldn't allow, but this is my anything goes campaign, and I guess the players deserve something nice from playing from first to 23rd level. He's not going to qualify forthe class until 26th level though... so we'll see if the campaign lasts long enough.

 

[Burne]

A great non-FR non-Core P-class is the Justicar of Taila from the Deities and Demigods. By default it is a non-good class, and it's easy to qualify for. Very very best part is every ability follows a regular pattern. Epic class feats every 4 I would say, but more epic feats count for alot.

Human Fighter4/Rogue2/Blackguard 2(min)/Justicar

Alternatly,

Human Fighter2/Rogue4/Blackguard 2/Templar 1-4/Justicar

Only problem with the class is they are deity restricted to only Taila, but hey it's a one-shot right

 

[Voadam]

Disregard my witch hunter idea, I think they require a good alignment.