3e and the Test of Time

[Akrasia]

...
2)Which game wil have more players ten years after it's original publication?
....

Contrary to what people around here might think, 1E still has a pretty large and devoted following. I am constantly amazed at how many people still play 1E.

Will 3.x players feel a similar attachment to their OOP product 25 years from now?

Given how keen most 3.0 players were to immediately 'upgrade' to 3.5, I am sceptical...

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Contrary to what people around here might think, 1E still has a pretty large and devoted following. I am constantly amazed at how many people still play 1E.

Will 3.x players feel a similar attachment to their OOP product 25 years from now?

Given how keen most 3.0 players were to immediately 'upgrade' to 3.5, I am sceptical...

Has anyone else just plain HAD IT with all these condescending attitudes towards people that play ANY other edition?!

Look, 1e DOES still have an audience. Yes. But OBVIOUSLY its not nearly as big as the current 3e one is. If it was, then WotC would be making products for 1e. YES some 3e players will feel attached to the game 25 years from now. Just like SOME 1e players and 2e players do. Just because you like something that's older does not make it BETTER. It does not make YOU better than anyone else, and it does not say ANYTHING about the current edition.

So WHAT if people still play 1e?! And you know what, I don't think your definition of 'pretty large following' is the same as mine. I'd agree that more peolpe still play 1e than I'd have originally expected(heck, I've even given it a try as I started with the later years of 2e), but it isn't in any way a large following. The LARGE following is reserved for, like it or not, 3e.

Can we PLEASE do something about all this damned negative sentiment flying around lately? Throw it out and ENJOY the game! Enjoy whichever game you play, I DON'T CARE. But don't go around telling everyone that you're better than people playing other games, or that YOUR version of a game is better, or that YOU know what's best for the industry, or (the world of all in my opinion) yet ANOTHER 'The RPG Industry is ending! The Sky is falling! AHHHH!' thread.

GAH!

 

[Akrasia]

Has anyone else just plain HAD IT with all these condescending attitudes towards people that play ANY other edition?!

Ummm ... I actually play in a 3e group right now. I think you're reading condenscension into a statement where it was not intended.

Look, 1e DOES still have an audience. Yes. But OBVIOUSLY its not nearly as big as the current 3e one is. If it was, then WotC would be making products for 1e.

The player support for a OOP game is almost never as great as that for an IP game. There are obvious reasons for this.

YES some 3e players will feel attached to the game 25 years from now.

What will inspire this commitment? That has been the topic of this thread (at least initially). In terms of mechanics, people seem quick to 'upgrade' as soon as possible.

Just because you like something that's older does not make it BETTER.

Wow -- that was not my argument. Good thing too, because it's incoherent.

It does not make YOU better than anyone else, and it does not say ANYTHING about the current edition.

WTF? Where are you getting this?

So WHAT if people still play 1e?!

It is nice to know.

Can we PLEASE do something about all this damned negative sentiment flying around lately? Throw it out and ENJOY the game!

Yeah, I'm enjoying 1E and 3E. And soon C&C. Good times.

Enjoy whichever game you play, I DON'T CARE.

Mon ami, you are the one throwing the tantrum here, not me.

But don't go around telling everyone that you're better than people playing other games...

WTF? Where are you getting this? :\

or that YOUR version of a game is better, or that YOU know what's best for the industry, or (the world of all in my opinion) yet ANOTHER 'The RPG Industry is ending!

WTF Where are you getting this? :\

The Sky is falling! AHHHH!'

Mon ami, I think you forgot to take your Paxil today.

This is the internet. Relax.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

What will inspire this commitment? That has been the topic of this thread (at least initially). In terms of mechanics, people seem quick to 'upgrade' as soon as possible.

I'll just comment on this one, as the rest of my post was more complaining about the general state of more than one thread over the last few weeks that is obviously getting on my nerves.

What will inspire this commitment? Simple. The campaign settings will do it. Eberron, FR, Greyhawk, Draglonance, and all those great 3rd part settings that are out there now. THOSE will keep people. There are tons of old books from other editions that are completely useless now beacuse of the mechanics in them. That's nothing new with 3e. And yes, there is less flavor in 3e, but there's obviously a good reason for it.

WotC found that people would rather not have all that flavor force fed to them like many of the previous editions did. So what's the solution to that? More mechanics, less flavor. It works. The fact that the player base has doubled in the last four years and that this past year was the best ever for D&D is proof that WotC is doing SOMETHING right.

And, IMO, that something WILL stand the test of time. Though if you don't agree with that, there's one thing that will keep 3e around longer than any other edition. The SRD. Even when 4e comes out(whenever that will be, though I doubt it'll be all the different, but that's another thread), there will STILL be people able to make d20 products with the SRD, as it can't ever be revoked. So that alone might just mean that 3e will have a much larger following after its 'gone'.

[/calm]

 

[Akrasia]

...
What will inspire this commitment? Simple. The campaign settings will do it. Eberron, FR, Greyhawk, Draglonance, and all those great 3rd part settings that are out there now. THOSE will keep people.

You do realize that FR, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance are all 1E settings, right?
As for Eberron, while interesting, many of its most 'novel' elements can be found in Mystara 15 years ago (especially in the Empire of Alphatia -- streetlights with 'continual light' spells, etc. are all there).
But Midnight and Iron Kingdoms look pretty cool ...

There are tons of old books from other editions that are completely useless now beacuse of the mechanics in them.

Really? That is news. I know 3e groups who play Planescape campaigns, 1e groups who use Midnight, and a GURPS group based in the Iron Kingdoms. Crazy.

And yes, there is less flavor in 3e, but there's obviously a good reason for it.
...
More mechanics, less flavor. It works...
... And, IMO, that something WILL stand the test of time. ...

Mechanics are all very well and nice, but if that is the only selling point of a game, a particular version will be abandoned as soon as a new version that 'improves' on the mechanics comes along.

Nobody feels nostalgic over utilitarian things like wrenches, papertowels, Windows 1998, etc. In contrast, people are still willing to drive 1967 cadillacs or play Atari 2600 games on their PCs -- despite all the obvious utilitarian disadvantages of doing so -- because of those products' quirks and charms.

.... there's one thing that will keep 3e around longer than any other edition. The SRD.

I agree that it will be interesting to see how the SRD plays out after 4e is released...

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

You do realize that FR, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance are all 1E settings, right?
As for Eberron, while interesting, many of its most 'novel' elements can be found in Mystara 15 years ago (especially in the Empire of Alphatia -- streetlights with 'continual light' spells, etc. are all there).
But Midnight and Iron Kingdoms look pretty cool ...

Yep, I know those settings are older. And think what you want about Eberron, Mystara hs faded out of supported D&D like many older settings. Its novel elements are novel to the many gamers who have likely never even heard of Mystara before. If Eberron keeps being supported as the schedule for next year shows, it will continue to grow in strength and will have no trouble sticking around for a long time.

Really? That is news. I know 3e groups who play Planescape campaigns, 1e groups who use Midnight, and a GURPS group based in the Iron Kingdoms. Crazy.

I specifically was talking about mechanics. Everything you mentioned is a campaign setting, which, as I mentioned before, ARE the things that will survive through editions(and even other games, as you've pointed out). What I was trying to say was that older editions DID have the mechanics books like 3e has, but it seems like the only examples of books people give these days are the campaign settings? Coincidence? Nope. Every edition has its useless books for older editions. That makes SENSE. Its a different edition of the game. Of course everything's not going work.

Mechanics are all very well and nice, but if that is the only selling point of a game, a particular version will be abandoned as soon as a new version that 'improves' on the mechanics comes along.

Nobody feels nostalgic over utilitarian things like wrenches, papertowels, Windows 1998, etc. In contrast, people are still willing to drive 1967 cadillacs or play Atari 2600 games on their PCs -- despite all the obvious utilitarian disadvantages of doing so -- because of those products' quirks and charms.

True. But despite the large amount of mechanics in 3e products, there IS flavor text. There's enough of it to inspire and keep people playing. If there wasn't, the game would not have experienced the increase in numbers that it has over the past 4 years. Even IF 3e doesn't survive the test of time, its brought a great number of new players and that's a VERY GOOD THING.

I agree that it will be interesting to see how the SRD plays out after 4e is released...

Honestly, I don't think that WotC will ever be able to truly release a new edition anymore. Most revisions from this point on, IMO, will likely be smaller like the 3.5 was to 3.0. Eventually, the SRD will fade into obscurity, but it will be something to keep an eye on when 4e starts to show its head.

 

[MerricB]

The strong likelihood is that 4E will be to 3.5E what 3.5E was to 3E.

That is, a fixing of elements of the game that couldn't be addressed in 3.5e (Turn Undead, Metamagic, etc.), but leaving the core mechanics of the game pretty much unchanged.

Has oD&D stood the test of time? Absolutely. It is with us today... as 3.5e

Cheers!

 

[Maggan]

Inspiration for year to come

What will inspire this commitment? That has been the topic of this thread (at least initially).

I played 1e, and I don't use many of the books for anything. I pull out the PH once in a while to compare with the 3e PH (I skipped 2e, except for Planescape). Old stuff I pull out for inspiration, hmmm... tough... Ravenloft will always be a classic. The first five Dragonlance modules, Desert of Desolation. Not many of the core rules... at least not for me.

So sad to say, of all the about 100 1e products I own, I only think a handful have stood the test of time, and would be seen by me as viable relases today. And I think that 3e qill yield maybe a handful books that will carry on over a transition to a new edition.

And with 2e I don't really know, Planescape will always be a classic with me. But then again, there were lots and lots and lots of 2e books that don't end up on a "I've used this for 25 years, and they haven't done anything better than this since!".

For 3e, I think we have to wait to see what turns into products that stand the test of time. I nominate Draconomicon, and even if it is of 1e origin, the Forgotten Realms CS (which I think is the best version so far which is why I think the 3e version will stand the test of time). Also Eberron will probably be there, if for nothing else because we're running it now, and it tends to be the stuff you use that end up as classic modules you can't let go. Maybe the DMG II will be hot stuff (I really hope so). I think the 3e core rules will serve a lot of groups for a long time, just as 1e and 2e core rules does. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil maybe.

Of 3rd party stuff, I think Mutants&Masterminds has a good chance of having devoted followers, as well as Midnight. World's Largest Dungeon perhaps, just because it's really, really big. For me personally, Skull&Bones will be useful until I drop dead at the retirement home, that's how much I like it! A true classic, for me.

So if we give 3e three more years maybe, there's bound to pop up even more stuff that will stand the test of time, and be useful even in 25 years time.

Cheers!

Maggan

 

[Turjan]

3e and the test of time?

3e lasted four years before being supersecded by 3.5

3e has already failed the test of time, compared to it's forerunners. 3e is OOP just like 1st ed AD&D.

Well, as a DM I actually don't see that point. I use 3.0 products in 3.5 games without real changes. I don't sit down and convert NPC's or monsters, except maybe a DR or the changes in buff durations, haste and polymorph. I don't convert a 3.0 ranger NPC to a 3.5 one. It does not interest me that one entry should read now "Survival". If some spell levels of a wizard are off, who cares? My players know that. As I don't introduce them to NPC's by listing their levels in classes and prestige classes, it does not really make a difference. Maybe, I'm just lucky that I don't have any ruleslaywers in my group .

 

[Akrasia]

...
Has oD&D stood the test of time? Absolutely. It is with us today... as 3.5e
...

The funny thing is that I played both OAD&D and MERP/Rolemaster a lot in the 1980's -- and 3.5e definitely feels much more like MERP/Rolemaster than OAD&D! (A single 'roll high' mechanic for everything...)


But I guess if you claim that all RPGs are ultimately rooted in OD&D, well then whatever....

(Nice to see you over at Dragonsfoot Merric!)