D&D 3E/3.5 3e style templates in 4e, how to do it?

[Meatboy]

Hey all! I want to bring my 3e HB setting into the new edition but am getting tripped up on more than a few things. First up is how to do level adjustment type races and templates for 4e. My HB has a very limited racial selection but in 3e anyway I got around this by allowing players to grab a template for their character and letting them start at 3 level.
Now in 4e level 1 characters feel more like level 3 3e PCs but I don't really feel like making 15 or 20 vartiations of the races to get that template feeling back.
I am also leary of just making the templates and saying you can take one because then what is the point of NOT taking one when making characters. So I'm hoping someone has faced this problem too or maybe the minds here can tackle this in I way I haven't thought of.

Thanks to anyone who has some thoughts!

 

[the Jester]

Templates are fundamentally different in 4e; they really are just for monsters.

However, a good way to emulate the old feel you're looking for might be a combination of different racial powers and feats. YMMV, but it looks to me as if those are the best avenues for 'racial distinction' in 4e.

 

[Meatboy]

Yeah feats might work but I am unsure how to setup stuff so that the feats make you want to take them but not so awesome that you wouldn't not take them.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

PHB II will introduce "Bloodlines" as a second way to give a character "racial" abilities, and to exchange class powers vs. new powers.

I suppose you might start from there.

Yeah feats might work but I am unsure how to setup stuff so that the feats make you want to take them but not so awesome that you wouldn't not take them.

It should probably work similar to powers that you gain by multi-classing (especially the power exchange feats). Why do people pick a multi-class power? Usually because it adds something that synergies well with their characters other abilities. A fighter picking up Flame Burst might do so because he wants a power that works at range and that can attack multiple foes (so they are all marked.)
Alternatively, he might consider picking a Cleric power for better healing.
Just compare Healing Strike and Comeback Strike. Same damage, similar amount of healing. Comeback is reliable Daily, Healing Strike a regular encounter power. They are both balanced for their respective class, but Healing Strike looks like a neat power to any fighter.


I think template or bloodline feats will work very similar. They are no more powerful then the power of a specific class. But they provide you with a way to get a power that your class doesn't have and can synergize well. or just provide a theme.
Imagine a "Fey Template" that gives you access to charms, invisibility and teleportation. That could be neat for any Rogue, Warlock or Wizard. Warlock and Wizard are likely to have such powers already, so you look there to balance your new powers. The Rogue gets little of these (especially at low levels), but he might want them nevertheless if it fits his style. But he is giving up his class powers for it, and they aren't bad either, but they provide different options and have a different theme.

 

[Engilbrand]

The new Bloodline feats are definitely the way to go. As it is, we've only seen the Dhampyr done this way, but it opens up a world of possibility.
Can you give us some examples of the types of races you're talking about?

 

[Meatboy]

Hmm the bloodline feats sound like they might work but I haven't actually seen anything on them yet. As for examples the templates revolve around the idea of spirits, the formless fragments of what amount to the gods of the setting, and the spirits manifesting in hosts at birth. The spirits fit into 4 broad categories: elemental, physical, mental and chaos.

Under each category are some templates all of which were +1 LA. Like under elemental you had one for each classical element, so Flameborn, Earthborn etc. or under physical you had immortal, giant and swift. Here's an example of one.

Flameborn​

Flameborn have inherited some of the power from the Word of Elements. They posses some of the ethereal and unpredictable qualities associated with fire, this makes them very enticing to look upon and they often have flowing red hair, red or yellow eyes and skin that feels uncomfortably warm to the touch.​

​

Creating a Flameborn Creature​

“Flameborn” is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal animal, aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant or vermin of any alignment (Referred to hereafter as the base creature).​

A flameborn creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes.​

Size and Type: Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged.​

Special Qualities: A Flameborn creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following special qualities.​

1 Resistance Fire 5​

2 Produce Elements (fire): at will as a 1st level caster. If they are a caster, they know this spell (fire only) and may augment it as any other spell with no base cost.​

If the base creature already has this special quality the effects stack.​

Abilities: Change the base creature’s abilities as follows: +2 Int, +2 Cha, Flameborn have glib tongues and quick wits.​

Environment: Any.​

Challenge Rating: As base creature + 1.​

Alignment: Usually chaotic​

Level Adjustment: As the base creature + 1.

I don't think giving stat bonuses would work any more but with feats I think I could see how this could make it even more involved.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

One trick Bloodline feats use is the same as for multiclassing - opportunity cost. You can have only one Bloodline and you can multiclass only into one class.
That's how the initial feat can justify its strong benefits. (Most Multiclass Feats for example are "Skill Training + Extra")

Flameborn (Bloodline)
Prerequisite: Con13+
You gain Resist Fire equal to 1/2 your level.
You can also use Produce Flame as a racial encounter attack power.

Produce Flame - Racial Power
Encounter - Fire
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Str/Con/Dex +2 vs Reflex
Increase to Str/Con/Dex +4 vs Reflex at 11th level
Increase to Str/Con/Dex +6 vs Reflex at 21st level
Hit: 1d6 + Con fire damage, and the target takes ongoing damage fire 2 (save ends)
Increase to 2d6 + CON fire damage and ongoing damage fire 5 (save ends) at 11th level
Increase to 3d6 + CON fire damage and ongoing damage fire 10 (save ends) at 21st level.


One with Fire (Bloodline)
Prerequisite: Flameborn
Your Fire Resistance increases to 5 + 1/2 level. If an attack deals fire damage and fails to beat your fire resistance, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution Modifier (minimum 1).



There might be still some balancing concerns (ongoing damage for encounter powers is rare, for example).

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I generally feel templates and "special" races don't really need to give extra ability bonuses. Your primary ability scores improve by 8 points over 30 levels already. If you feel a change is warranted, you might just want to replace the regular racial ability modifiers. I am not sure how balanced this would be, but I think it can't be too bad. Generally, racial ability modifiers already complement each races "shticks", so you can at worst weaken a race.

 

[Engilbrand]

Why not just take base races and reflavor them? The Flameborn sounds like a Firesoul Genasi to me. With the tiniest bit of tinkering, it will do what you want it to do. Give each Genasi type a slightly different bonus and you should be good.

 

[Khuxan]

I think we need to know more about the flavour of the setting before we can say anything for sure. I like Mustrum Ridcully's Bloodline suggestion, but that's a lot of trouble to go to if a firesoul genasi could cover it. (Remember size has less of an effect in this edition* so a fireborn halfling could just be a firesoul genasi of Small size).

*Although it does have an effect

 

[Meatboy]

Why not just take base races and reflavor them? The Flameborn sounds like a Firesoul Genasi to me. With the tiniest bit of tinkering, it will do what you want it to do. Give each Genasi type a slightly different bonus and you should be good.

Well it is a lot like a gensai if you add it to say a human or an elf but... well at least in this campaign PCs only get to pick one of 4 races humans, modified elves and dwarves and a giant like race called Oghrim (Oh-grim). The idea of the templates was to give more varition in the races without having a super diverse ecology. I personally have never liked the 10000 sentient races thing that seems rather pervasive in DnD. But I did want my players to have some options and since I usually start games at around 3rd level having LA races and options seemed like the way to go.
So you could have 'Flameborn' Oghrim or 'Genius' exiles (the elves) or any other combination that you wanted to spend the levels on.

@ Mustrum_Ridcully
Thanks that is a pretty good outline for what I am looking it gives me a good base and lots of room to work with. I'll probably use that or something very similar to springboard some other feats off. I was thinking 4-5 feats for each bloodline perhaps.