3e to 4e. Whaddaya got to gain? Whaddaya got to lose?
- Thread starter Andor
- Start date
Elephant
First Post
Go with 4e:
Pros - New players you recruit can easily find the books to buy
Full support from WOTC moving forward - if you sign up for their pay website
The new ruleset could add a breath of fresh air into the game, mechanically.
Cons - All your game rules intuition goes out the window
$$$ to buy the 4e books
Many current characters can't be converted to 4e rules
Stay with 3e:
Pros - No new rules to learn
No new books you have to buy in order to play (assuming you already have the 3e books)
Cons - Some players may refuse to play in an "old" game
No further "support" (in terms of additional splatbooks) from WOTC
Pros - New players you recruit can easily find the books to buy
Full support from WOTC moving forward - if you sign up for their pay website
The new ruleset could add a breath of fresh air into the game, mechanically.
Cons - All your game rules intuition goes out the window
$$$ to buy the 4e books
Many current characters can't be converted to 4e rules
Stay with 3e:
Pros - No new rules to learn
No new books you have to buy in order to play (assuming you already have the 3e books)
Cons - Some players may refuse to play in an "old" game
No further "support" (in terms of additional splatbooks) from WOTC
Andor
First Post
Okay, as a GM if I were looking to start a game, what can I do in 4e that I cannot do in 3e? And contriwise what can I do in 3e that I cannot do in 4e?
I'm trying to come up with examples that don't raise the specter of the minion debate, or that aren't unfair to 4e on the basis of 3e having a metric Bryant of books out. I'm failing... :\
I'm trying to come up with examples that don't raise the specter of the minion debate, or that aren't unfair to 4e on the basis of 3e having a metric Bryant of books out. I'm failing... :\
Shemeska
Adventurer
4e's default cosmology is virtually antithetical to the one I'm using, and have been using for almost 8 years.
Planar creatures in 4e assume that default and in many cases they have significant differences from their 1e/2e/3e selves, going so far in some cases as to be the same in name only (archons as angelic, vaguely gnostic-inspired manifestations of Lawful Good, versus evil elementals with helmets). Many of the beings I heavily use in 3.x don't even exist in 4e, and given designer comments like 'putting a bullet in their head' in one case I don't exactly see many of them appearing anytime soon, and if they do they seem likely to reinvent them to the point that it's of no use to me (see 4e yugoloths as being CE soldier demons rather than manipulative, NE puppetmasters).
Plus, there's the cost of new books, the lag time in getting used to a new system.
Thirdly, the new rules don't fit all styles of play by any means. Want to play a wizard that's not a fireball hurling damage-bot? Going to be difficult with a 4e wizard unless it's outside of combat. The classes seem in many ways to me to be rigidly held to a pre-defined "role" and awkward to play outside of what the rules feel is the proper way to play them. Not my cup of tea.
Planar creatures in 4e assume that default and in many cases they have significant differences from their 1e/2e/3e selves, going so far in some cases as to be the same in name only (archons as angelic, vaguely gnostic-inspired manifestations of Lawful Good, versus evil elementals with helmets). Many of the beings I heavily use in 3.x don't even exist in 4e, and given designer comments like 'putting a bullet in their head' in one case I don't exactly see many of them appearing anytime soon, and if they do they seem likely to reinvent them to the point that it's of no use to me (see 4e yugoloths as being CE soldier demons rather than manipulative, NE puppetmasters).
Plus, there's the cost of new books, the lag time in getting used to a new system.
Thirdly, the new rules don't fit all styles of play by any means. Want to play a wizard that's not a fireball hurling damage-bot? Going to be difficult with a 4e wizard unless it's outside of combat. The classes seem in many ways to me to be rigidly held to a pre-defined "role" and awkward to play outside of what the rules feel is the proper way to play them. Not my cup of tea.
Dice4Hire
First Post
Well, I am more convinced then ever that 3E-4E changover is not going to work. _And by this I mean changing an existing campaign over wholesale and trying notto have more than minimal changover-pains.
This worked form 2E to 3E, and from 3E to 3.5E.
I do not think it is going to work this time. Maybe not even at 1st level, which is a shocker to me. The new classes are too different, and the approach to the game is too different also. It is a new gmae, and I may like it, but my 3.5 is staying 3.5 till the gmaes finish. I will start new 4E stuff, and that will be 4E.
I will not mix and match or convert.
This worked form 2E to 3E, and from 3E to 3.5E.
I do not think it is going to work this time. Maybe not even at 1st level, which is a shocker to me. The new classes are too different, and the approach to the game is too different also. It is a new gmae, and I may like it, but my 3.5 is staying 3.5 till the gmaes finish. I will start new 4E stuff, and that will be 4E.
I will not mix and match or convert.
I've got a better game than either 3e or 4e. It's called AD&D Second Edition and it rocks on toast. Plus, I already own a ton of the books. And those I don't own are really cheap. Switching means spending over $100 on books that will get new versions next Summer. And judging by the supplements aren't all that complete either (meaning the magic items need another book, most classes don't have enough powers or feats). You really have to love 4E over everything else available to go over to it.
I will buy some adventures, but this Keep on the Shadowfell was really, really bad. It was a like one of the kid made adventures from the 80's. It's like they really were aping Orc & Pie. There's nothing else in it! It's a few boring traps which are actually there for the fight scenes (and they do look like "scenes" now). Everything about roleplaying was pretty slim in the dungeon and that pretty well sucked. For $30, it's the biggest ripoff adventure I've bought in a long, long time.
It's stupid, but I know people say games "improve" over time. Like they should revamp Chess or something. But just a glance at the adventures they've put out for 4e proves this idea false. The 3e introductory adventures were better than this drek. Ugh.
I will buy some adventures, but this Keep on the Shadowfell was really, really bad. It was a like one of the kid made adventures from the 80's. It's like they really were aping Orc & Pie. There's nothing else in it! It's a few boring traps which are actually there for the fight scenes (and they do look like "scenes" now). Everything about roleplaying was pretty slim in the dungeon and that pretty well sucked. For $30, it's the biggest ripoff adventure I've bought in a long, long time.
It's stupid, but I know people say games "improve" over time. Like they should revamp Chess or something. But just a glance at the adventures they've put out for 4e proves this idea false. The 3e introductory adventures were better than this drek. Ugh.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
4E is good for you if,
o You want something new. After 8 years with 3.x, you're feel fatigued and are stretching out for new d20 games (Arcana Evolved, Iron Hereoes, True20, D20 Modern) or even beyond (Shadowrun, Warhammer, Midgard, World of Darkness)
o Any of the following things happened to you in 3E
- 15 minute adventure day
- Over-profileration of spellcasters
- Combats being over in less then 4 rounds due to instant death effects or massive damage
- By-The-Book DM getting overworked from creating all those levelled or HD advanced monsters, or self-made ones.
- Character Creation took to long for you
o If you like a system where all classes have their unique shtick, but are all equally useful in combat.
o You want easy tools to improvise monsters and stunts without breaking the game
o "Story-Breaking" powers like Fly, Scry, Teleport, Speak with Dead are limited in use and are put at a distinct tier, so you know when you can switch the style of your adventures to suite such powers
o You want magical items to have less importance, or make easy house-rules to remove them fully.
o You always wanted a "Combat Leader" type character without spells like the Warlord.
o You like complex combat systems. (That relies a lot on special maneuvers and powers for complexity)
o You like a new cosmology, and find the ideas of the Feywild, Shadowfell, Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos interesting.
o Less (no) mechanical focus on alignments
3E is good for you if,
o You think you're happy with the supplements you got, and you think you will still get a lot of use out of it.
o You're interested in adventure material from a proven source like Paizo.
o None of the typical problem issues mentioned to 3E every proved problematic for your game, since you avoided it, house-ruled it, it felt right to you, or just never came up.
o You want to focus your games on Gnomes, Druids, Barbarians, or Sorcerers. (This will later be reconciled in 4E, but for the moment, it stays a limitation)
o You like character creation micro-management like juggling skill points to flesh out aspects of your characters
o You have modified the game to suite your campaign, or built a campaign on the 3E rules, and don't want to make a new conversion or start a new campaign.
o You like complex combat systems (that relies a lot on spellcasting for complexity.)
o You prefer the Great Wheel or have already homebrewed your new cosmology.
If you can't decide, try both and eventually continue using both.
My group will probably play a few of the Paizo Adventure Pathes for a while, despite being pretty interested in 4E.
o You want something new. After 8 years with 3.x, you're feel fatigued and are stretching out for new d20 games (Arcana Evolved, Iron Hereoes, True20, D20 Modern) or even beyond (Shadowrun, Warhammer, Midgard, World of Darkness)
o Any of the following things happened to you in 3E
- 15 minute adventure day
- Over-profileration of spellcasters
- Combats being over in less then 4 rounds due to instant death effects or massive damage
- By-The-Book DM getting overworked from creating all those levelled or HD advanced monsters, or self-made ones.
- Character Creation took to long for you
o If you like a system where all classes have their unique shtick, but are all equally useful in combat.
o You want easy tools to improvise monsters and stunts without breaking the game
o "Story-Breaking" powers like Fly, Scry, Teleport, Speak with Dead are limited in use and are put at a distinct tier, so you know when you can switch the style of your adventures to suite such powers
o You want magical items to have less importance, or make easy house-rules to remove them fully.
o You always wanted a "Combat Leader" type character without spells like the Warlord.
o You like complex combat systems. (That relies a lot on special maneuvers and powers for complexity)
o You like a new cosmology, and find the ideas of the Feywild, Shadowfell, Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos interesting.
o Less (no) mechanical focus on alignments
3E is good for you if,
o You think you're happy with the supplements you got, and you think you will still get a lot of use out of it.
o You're interested in adventure material from a proven source like Paizo.
o None of the typical problem issues mentioned to 3E every proved problematic for your game, since you avoided it, house-ruled it, it felt right to you, or just never came up.
o You want to focus your games on Gnomes, Druids, Barbarians, or Sorcerers. (This will later be reconciled in 4E, but for the moment, it stays a limitation)
o You like character creation micro-management like juggling skill points to flesh out aspects of your characters
o You have modified the game to suite your campaign, or built a campaign on the 3E rules, and don't want to make a new conversion or start a new campaign.
o You like complex combat systems (that relies a lot on spellcasting for complexity.)
o You prefer the Great Wheel or have already homebrewed your new cosmology.
If you can't decide, try both and eventually continue using both.
My group will probably play a few of the Paizo Adventure Pathes for a while, despite being pretty interested in 4E.
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