3E Without Miniatures

[KnowTheToe]

I vary rarely used mini's before 3E, but can't imagine not using a battlemat and some form of markers for this tactical system. You're all crazy, crazy I tell ya!

 

[Psion]

I'm wondering if anyone has come up with a re-balanced set of rules that can run without miniatures -- obviously, a number of feats, class abilities and rules would have to be removed and/or replaced. What work has been done on that front?

I don't see any reason to modify the rules. You, as a DM, just have to be more willing to ajudicate situations that would normally be spelled out by the map.

For example, you know if a wizard has two bodyguards in front of him and a player charges the wizards, the player is going to pass through the threat zones of the bodyguard.

If a rogue wants to flank, you might know whether or not the creature is in a position to be flanked, and might make the rogue expent a move equivalent action to maneuver (and cannot charge if it requires the rogue to move in anything other than a straight line.)

Really, using the rules without minis just requires some common sense and the willingness to make a call now and then.

 

[Henry]

Three points:

When people say "minis' they often mean using fully painted miniatures, terrain, etc. While fun, it doesn't need to be so. simple 1" grid paper (available at any office supply store) and a pack of the Counter Collection from Fiery Dragon Productions, and a group is ready to go. Total expenditure is $20 or less.

Even without using representation of ANY sort, simple combats are easy to do. Assuming no more than 6 to 8 combatants, things can be sufficiently glossed over to not have to break out the grids and counters.

My group has been using miniatures and tokens since 1987. We've never played D&D without them UNTIL 3E, when we started glossing over minor combats. We have recently begun using FDP's Counter Collections I and II (Which I am addicted to, now.) They allow us to turn over counters of the fallen, allow us to keep exact track of which NPC in the battlefield is wounded (a previously difficult proposition), and do not get in the way when maneuvering around the battlefield.

 

[maddman75]

I usually use minis or counters, except for a battle that is very small and will be over very quick. Then again, with seven players it is easy for things to get complicated.

You will essentially have to rely on DM fiat for who gets an AoO, who is flanked, who is within a spell effect. I've found that in most cases using the minis is faster than not, as it prevents the inevitable I-was-here he-was-there how-could-he-hit-me arguements that will arise.

You also have to be careful that you don't shaft players who expend feats on things like cleave, spring attack, and whirlwind attack, which are very essential to placement and orientation.

 

[Wolfspirit]

My group has never used minis; when we first started out we were thinking about it, and even bought a couple, but that never went anywhere other than marching order.

We've been using a whiteboard for about the past two years, and it's worked fine. We just use common sense and if there's a question about placement or scale, we just ask the DM. "Are they close enough that this will give me an AoO?" "Do I have room to do this?" It's also usefull for large scale battles since it would take a LOT of graph paper to represent a battle with an orcish horde we've had, or things like that.

 

[Bagpuss]

Maybe at low levels, but placing a Fireball, or a Cone of Cold or working out who is hit by the dragon's breath, is kinda difficult without a battlemap.

Hmm the problem I find with Fireballs, Cones of Cold and the like with a Battlemat, is that the wizard will claim he can place it in such a way that it fries the bad-guy but not the fighter he's in melee with.

In my games that's a no-no, since in melee the actual fighters will be stepping forward with a thrust, dodging backwards, side-stepping for better position, etc. The 'square' your miniture is in just represents the general position.

Without minatures its easy to say if the monsters are melee then you will get the friendly they are fighting with. With template you get players the whine and place 'just' so to claim they can avoid hitting friends, when in a fluid combat situation it would be impossible.

 

[fett527]

This is obviously a "To each their own" and what your used to kind of issue.

For me we have always played with miniatures and it is an integral part of the game for our group. We use figs for characters and just draw on a battlemat for terrain. I agree that placement is extremely important with a lot of 3E rules and I would always prefer to play with a battlemat and figs. It's easier to adjudicate some things such as line of sight this way IMO.

 

[Gunslinger]

I can't imagine playing D&D without minis or some sort of counters on a grid. The one time when my DM forgot his map and miniatures was the slowest and most confusing battle I have ever experienced. Instead of planning my moves in advance I was constantly asking "can I to orc1?" or "does he get an AoA?". Everything runs much smoother with visual representation, and players can asses the situation with a mere glance rather than trying to remember where the orc that bob downed was relative to you, and which direction the remaining ones are.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

When people say "minis' they often mean using fully painted miniatures, terrain, etc.

I am using "minis" to mean any sort of visual representation about what is going on in a given combat situation; be it figurines, dice, tokens, a whiteboard, some books, a battlemat, or whatever. I am not a Games Workshop Minis-Fascist, if that's what you mean.

Jasper---
Learn to visualize things in your head. But how to do this I don't know.

I know how to visualize things in my head. It's communicating what is going on inside my head to the players at every single stage of the game that is the problem. Visual representation allows me, as a DM, to properly roleplay the actions and reactions of the monsters without having to worry about whether or not my players are on the same page as me. I'm freeing up my RAM, so to speak.

maddman75----
You also have to be careful that you don't shaft players who expend feats on things like cleave, spring attack, and whirlwind attack, which are very essential to placement and orientation.

Tip o' the iceberg.

Bagpuss---
In my games that's a no-no, since in melee the actual fighters will be stepping forward with a thrust, dodging backwards, side-stepping for better position, etc. The 'square' your miniture is in just represents the general position.

Without minatures its easy to say if the monsters are melee then you will get the friendly they are fighting with. With template you get players the whine and place 'just' so to claim they can avoid hitting friends, when in a fluid combat situation it would be impossible.

Obviously, you are allowed to do whatever you want in your games.

I just don't really believe that this mentality provides enough return for the amount of work that is required to get it to be effective. (Besides the fact that I have long ago given up that DnD will ever mimic reality in the slightest. *grin*)

I have a large degree of suspension of disbelief, I guess...

fett527---
This is obviously a "To each their own" and what your used to kind of issue.

True that.

 

[MGibster]

I've played 3rd Edition without any minatures or changes to the rules, you just scribble a quick map on a piece of paper and show folks starting positions.

I fail to see what the problem is.

I guess the problem arises when there are many PCs and NPCs, somebody cast area effect spells, somebody wants to pull off some complex maneuvers, and constantly scribbling a quick map and keeping track of movements can take time and end up being quite a mess. I've forgone miniatures for small encounters but I find them invaluable during most encounters in 3E.

The basic rules work fine without minitures.

I disagree. It seemed pretty clear the first time I read the rules that miniatures were meant to be used during game play. I think the games runs much smoother when miniatures are incorporated into game play. Of course if you find it just as easy or easier to run the game without miniatures then more power to you.

Marc