3eRevised Hold Spells: Lower Level?
- Thread starter Merlion
- Start date
Mark
CreativeMountainGames.com
Merlion said:
That doesn't make much sense to me but maybe you can explain. Seems to me if a spell is fine, it stays where it is and doesn't get changed. If a spell is not fine, it either needs to move or needs to change. If you're going to change a spell, why move it? Just change it enough so you don't have to move it. If you are going to move it, why would it also need to be changed? One or the other should fix any spells that aren't fine, shouldn't it?
the Jester said:
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Merlion
First Post
Ohh I'm sorry I guess I wasnt clear....balance wise I dont think they needed to change. From what I heard of the dragon article aparently SKR basicaly said the change is to keep a player who gets Held from having to be bored through long periods of inactivity. I've no problem with that but it reduces the power of the spell considerably therefore if they do that I think the spells need to change level.
Besides I never got why HP was 2nd level for Clerics and 3rd for Wizards/Sorcerers anyway...and then Clerics dont get HM at all...
Besides I never got why HP was 2nd level for Clerics and 3rd for Wizards/Sorcerers anyway...and then Clerics dont get HM at all...
Mark
CreativeMountainGames.com
Merlion said:
I agree.
Merlion said:
That's a ridiculous reason to change it. He must have meant something else. They'd have to remove all of the death spells, and anything else that put someone out of the action to justify it. It's one round per caster level, psionics still work (don't they?) and spells with no components can be cast. Once it gets up to the length of time where it might prove to be a serious problem, charatcers have access to dispels and such.
Merlion said:
I disagree. That's like saying they should take something that works, break it, then fix it in a different way than they broke it. If they feel a spell is incorrectly balanced, change it or move it, but not both. It makes no sense to me to do both.
Merlion said:
Without going completely through the spell lists one spell at a time, I imagine that for Clerics (and Bards) they felt that a spell of that power warranted being easier to access. HM is available to Clerics through the Law Domain and they should probably make it a fourth level cleric spell for the revised edition, to keep it on par with HP (Bards and Clerics one level earlier than Wiz/Sor). Since Clerics can summon monsters, and get the spell through the Law Domain, surely they should be able to Hold the damned things regularly.
I think you need to add some links to your sources on this because it makes no sense to me at all.
Info
If you played the "Chainmail" miniatures game wizards hacked recently then you would be familiar with this mechanic. It also applied to (but wont necessarily apply to these in 3.5):
Bestow Curse
Darkness
Daylight
Glitterdust
Spiritual Weapon
Summon Swarm
Edited to add (from the Chainmail Core Rules):
Confusion
Hold Monster
Insect Swarm
Spike Stones
Now some of these were done to facilitate a skirmish game and a couple I think actually made the spell more interesting. If you read a fantasy novel the heroes dont usually "know" how long the villain is going to be held (or whatever), but when the party cleric casts hold person, you can pretty much set a watch to how long it will last.
Its interesting to add that sleep is not on the list (but in Chainmail you could wake someone up from a magical sleep rather easily) and that this mechanic somewhat weakens "Slippery Mind" users, although that particular power is still rather strong imo.
My personal favorite was Spiritual Weapon, on a roll of 1-5 on the attack roll it would dissipate at the end of the round, not only are you pissed that you missed with your attack, but it goes away
Technik
If you played the "Chainmail" miniatures game wizards hacked recently then you would be familiar with this mechanic. It also applied to (but wont necessarily apply to these in 3.5):
Bestow Curse
Darkness
Daylight
Glitterdust
Spiritual Weapon
Summon Swarm
Edited to add (from the Chainmail Core Rules):
Confusion
Hold Monster
Insect Swarm
Spike Stones
Now some of these were done to facilitate a skirmish game and a couple I think actually made the spell more interesting. If you read a fantasy novel the heroes dont usually "know" how long the villain is going to be held (or whatever), but when the party cleric casts hold person, you can pretty much set a watch to how long it will last.
Its interesting to add that sleep is not on the list (but in Chainmail you could wake someone up from a magical sleep rather easily) and that this mechanic somewhat weakens "Slippery Mind" users, although that particular power is still rather strong imo.
My personal favorite was Spiritual Weapon, on a roll of 1-5 on the attack roll it would dissipate at the end of the round, not only are you pissed that you missed with your attack, but it goes away
Technik
Last edited:
Re
The change to Hold spells is a rather huge hit on their power. A save every round seriously weakens the spell to the point of near uselessness. Greater Command allows a save every round and my experience with this spell leads me to believe that holds will not last more than one to three rounds. The dice roll for saves are just too variable and one lucky roll gets you free. Kind a bad change in my opinion.
I'm sure it will make the melee folks happy. Personally, I am beginning to see a disturbing trend in tabletop RPG's in regards to class balance similar to what happened in CRPG's like EQ. I can't say as I think well of these types of changes.
The change to Hold spells is a rather huge hit on their power. A save every round seriously weakens the spell to the point of near uselessness. Greater Command allows a save every round and my experience with this spell leads me to believe that holds will not last more than one to three rounds. The dice roll for saves are just too variable and one lucky roll gets you free. Kind a bad change in my opinion.
I'm sure it will make the melee folks happy. Personally, I am beginning to see a disturbing trend in tabletop RPG's in regards to class balance similar to what happened in CRPG's like EQ. I can't say as I think well of these types of changes.
Oni
First Post
I dont have much of an opinion as to the changes itself, though do hope they make it the same level for divine/arcane across the board.
Personally I prefer spells to be reliable (from a player standpoint), lots of saves do not = reliable, but it's still seems useful as long as you act quickly. It's an interesting change.
Personally I prefer spells to be reliable (from a player standpoint), lots of saves do not = reliable, but it's still seems useful as long as you act quickly. It's an interesting change.
Thought of Something
By the way, concerning the above Chainmail mechanic (spells expiring, there was even a line under spell descriptions called "expiration chance"), which was usually a set chance to expire. So on a 1-5 your Spiritual Weapon goes away (just have to point out, Spritual Weapon is so much cooler than Spiritual Hammer of bygone days).
It would be interesting if this new "expiration chance" was modified by caster level. So a 3rd level cleric casts Spiritual Weapon and on an attack roll of 1-5 it dissipates at the end of round (and probably missed). A 20th level cleric casts Spiritual Weapon and it dissipates only on a 1, when the weapon would automatically miss. So every 5 caster levels you negate1 point of expiration chance (minimum 1).
The big question is "how will hold person work?". I don't think we know whether its a save every round or an expiration chance, but in any event since we know about both systems we can incorperate whichever we like better to our campaigns.
Personally I think it would be better on a case by case standpoint, say expiration chance for Spiritual Weapon and save every round for Hold Person (which allow me to be the first to say doesn't totally nerf the spell). I think the new Hold Peson should automatically work 1d4 rounds and then allow saves every round until the spell runs out; this preserves abilities like Slipper Mind and still gives that quality of never knowing when the villain is going to "wake up".
Technik
By the way, concerning the above Chainmail mechanic (spells expiring, there was even a line under spell descriptions called "expiration chance"), which was usually a set chance to expire. So on a 1-5 your Spiritual Weapon goes away (just have to point out, Spritual Weapon is so much cooler than Spiritual Hammer of bygone days).
It would be interesting if this new "expiration chance" was modified by caster level. So a 3rd level cleric casts Spiritual Weapon and on an attack roll of 1-5 it dissipates at the end of round (and probably missed). A 20th level cleric casts Spiritual Weapon and it dissipates only on a 1, when the weapon would automatically miss. So every 5 caster levels you negate1 point of expiration chance (minimum 1).
The big question is "how will hold person work?". I don't think we know whether its a save every round or an expiration chance, but in any event since we know about both systems we can incorperate whichever we like better to our campaigns.
Personally I think it would be better on a case by case standpoint, say expiration chance for Spiritual Weapon and save every round for Hold Person (which allow me to be the first to say doesn't totally nerf the spell). I think the new Hold Peson should automatically work 1d4 rounds and then allow saves every round until the spell runs out; this preserves abilities like Slipper Mind and still gives that quality of never knowing when the villain is going to "wake up".
Technik
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