3eRevised Hold Spells: Lower Level?
- Thread starter Merlion
- Start date
Cloudgatherer
First Post
I'll just say I don't like it. So many creatures have paralysis immunity to start. Second, having an option that captures, but does not kill, your opponent are now reduced.
If we were voting, I'd vote to leave the hold line as is.
If we were voting, I'd vote to leave the hold line as is.
Re
It wouldn't be so bad if they had to save every round for the duration of the spell. They are probably going to make it like Greater Command where the target of the spell need save only once to end the spell effect. This completely gives the advantage to the target of the spell and one lucky roll will allow them to escape.
Not to mention that giving creature such as a outsiders and dragons multiple chances to break a hold spell is ludicrous. You are lucky to land such a spell in the first place on such creatures much less allowing them to save every round. The change to Hold spells is very, very disappointing. I am going to push our group to keep the previous versions, though I don't think they will considering they play more melee's than casters.
It wouldn't be so bad if they had to save every round for the duration of the spell. They are probably going to make it like Greater Command where the target of the spell need save only once to end the spell effect. This completely gives the advantage to the target of the spell and one lucky roll will allow them to escape.
Not to mention that giving creature such as a outsiders and dragons multiple chances to break a hold spell is ludicrous. You are lucky to land such a spell in the first place on such creatures much less allowing them to save every round. The change to Hold spells is very, very disappointing. I am going to push our group to keep the previous versions, though I don't think they will considering they play more melee's than casters.
rijeagle
First Post
According to the article in Dragon #307, the change in the hold spells was to illiminate the on/off aspect of the spell. The spells recieved alot of feedback as a killer spell, so WotC decided to look at it.
Quoted from Dragon Magazine #307, without permission
"This proved problematic on a variety of fronts...by rendering a character or monster out of a fight for a period of time...it seldom worked that way...paints a big fat target on the creature. PCs get themselves in position for a coup de grace as quickly as possible...and the DM might do that, too."
"...until the duration runs out, the held creature gets to make a saving throw every round..."
"This addresses all the problem areas of the spell fairly easily...it does encourage the foe to attack the target quickly, but a coup de grace is a full round action. A charcter has to get in position one round, then perform it the next. That should give the target...at least one probably two, and maybe more chances to break the effects..."
"...this also solves the 'I'll go for the bag of chips' problem. The player...stays at the table and every round, rolls a die. The hold spell still has the whole 'on/off' issue, but as generally lower-level spells, we have to live with that sometimes."
No mention of reducing/raising the spell level.
Myself, I would think Haste getting changed would be the bigger conversation piece.
Partial action - gone
+4 to AC - gone
replaced with:
increase movement by 30'
+1 to attack roll
+1 to dodge
+1 to Reflex save
They feel Haste as a third level spell was too powerful. Maybe. So they fixed it, to bring it to par with other third level spells.
Quoted from Dragon Magazine #307, without permission
"This proved problematic on a variety of fronts...by rendering a character or monster out of a fight for a period of time...it seldom worked that way...paints a big fat target on the creature. PCs get themselves in position for a coup de grace as quickly as possible...and the DM might do that, too."
"...until the duration runs out, the held creature gets to make a saving throw every round..."
"This addresses all the problem areas of the spell fairly easily...it does encourage the foe to attack the target quickly, but a coup de grace is a full round action. A charcter has to get in position one round, then perform it the next. That should give the target...at least one probably two, and maybe more chances to break the effects..."
"...this also solves the 'I'll go for the bag of chips' problem. The player...stays at the table and every round, rolls a die. The hold spell still has the whole 'on/off' issue, but as generally lower-level spells, we have to live with that sometimes."
No mention of reducing/raising the spell level.
Myself, I would think Haste getting changed would be the bigger conversation piece.
Partial action - gone
+4 to AC - gone
replaced with:
increase movement by 30'
+1 to attack roll
+1 to dodge
+1 to Reflex save
They feel Haste as a third level spell was too powerful. Maybe. So they fixed it, to bring it to par with other third level spells.
Re
That is the new version of Haste? That is horrible. I will be taking that spell off my sorcerer's spell list as soon as I see this in the official book. That version is of very little benefit to a spell caster, heck, it isn't much of a benefit to a melee. Absolutely lame.
That is the new version of Haste? That is horrible. I will be taking that spell off my sorcerer's spell list as soon as I see this in the official book. That version is of very little benefit to a spell caster, heck, it isn't much of a benefit to a melee. Absolutely lame.
Mouseferatu
Hero
rijeagle said:
That's not entirely correct. You left out that the new Haste also grants you one extra attack in the round, if you use a full attack action. Thus, a 7th level fighter, when Hasted, gets three attacks per round, not two. (Not counting two-weapon fighting or any of that.)
So yeah, it's not as useful to spellcasters anymore, but it's still a great "buff" spell for the archer or the tank.
the Jester
Legend
Also, don't forget that haste will now affect multiple targets, and it's not nearly as unattractive as it could be. In fact, I'd say it's almost as attractive as the straight 3.0 version- but it isn't going to always be the first spell cast in every combat.
Speculation
Jester has a point. Hopefully either Haste will affect multiple targets or...slow won't. Speaking of slow, is this how its going to look:
- 1 "slow" AC bonus
- 1 to attack rolls
- 1 to reflex saves
-30 feet of movement (or will it be "movement is halved"?)
-1 attack per round on a full attack
Frankly the only way they look all that balanced is if they do affect more than 1 target (both versions). Not necessarily a lot of targets, but at higher levels, more than 1 (because at higher levels -1 to a couple stats and 1 extra attack isn't that huge...or is it?).
Slow still seems pretty decent. Of course, this makes me wonder if they are going to finally fix Expeditous Retreat. Perhaps that will just add a flat +30 movement now as well (and lets hope they clarify whether its +30 movement on every move-equivelent action or +30 movement for the round).
Technik
Jester has a point. Hopefully either Haste will affect multiple targets or...slow won't. Speaking of slow, is this how its going to look:
- 1 "slow" AC bonus
- 1 to attack rolls
- 1 to reflex saves
-30 feet of movement (or will it be "movement is halved"?)
-1 attack per round on a full attack
Frankly the only way they look all that balanced is if they do affect more than 1 target (both versions). Not necessarily a lot of targets, but at higher levels, more than 1 (because at higher levels -1 to a couple stats and 1 extra attack isn't that huge...or is it?).
Slow still seems pretty decent. Of course, this makes me wonder if they are going to finally fix Expeditous Retreat. Perhaps that will just add a flat +30 movement now as well (and lets hope they clarify whether its +30 movement on every move-equivelent action or +30 movement for the round).
Technik
Mark
CreativeMountainGames.com
rijeagle said:
Thanks for clearing that up, jeags. I'm sure T. Jester will post his source (if that's the actual case), but it may just be the standard conjecture/party line type of stuff we'd been dealing with in this thread until you laid it on the line for us. TJ is more known for straightening out the messes, than stirring the pot, so hopefully he'll have the skinny for us soon.
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