D&D 3E/3.5 3rd Edition Revisited - Better play with the power of hindsight?

[Thomas Shey]

More and more, not only do I think you should keep the penalties but given how much time is downplayed in 3.X campaigns, I think a DM should institute more stringent training times for multiclassing and then wisely put a time pressure ala RHoD and Dragons of Autumn.

Eh, I'd just consider that bait and switch. "Yeah, you can multiclass, but in practice I'm going to make it impractical" is not a good look.

 

[payn]

More and more, not only do I think you should keep the penalties but given how much time is downplayed in 3.X campaigns, I think a DM should institute more stringent training times for multiclassing and then wisely put a time pressure ala RHoD and Dragons of Autumn.

I dont, I really dont. I think the worst ideas in 3E are trying to keep folks on the rails via rules to try and get them to play like its 1999 again. The more you try and direct folks, the more they will try and find loopholes and 3E has no shortage of them.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sorry to hear that. Hope whatever you're playing suits you better.

And no offense to people who feel otherwise, but I do still stand on the point that the problems with 3e were to a large extent, baked in. They aren't just operator error, either at the GM or player's part.

 

[Charlaquin]

And then you had the other problem, you come across that Arcane Archer NPC who saysd he can teach you, but you skipped out on the Endurance Feat (or whatever it might be) and it's going to take you more levels to get that before you can even go into Arcane Archer.

Well, yeah. That would, in such a campaign, be the intended function of such prerequisites.

 

[Charlaquin]

The problem with a Tippyverse campaign is that it's like a Nyambe campaign. Sounds fun, no one genuinely wants to play it for long.

I don’t see any particular reason people wouldn’t want to. Sounds like your standard Points of Light type of setting

 

[Gilladian]

One thing that I find to be very noticeable with 3rd edition in hindsight is that there seems to be a very considerable disconnect between the people who designed the main rules set of the game, and the people who actually wrote the majority of supplements over the game's seven year run. Manifested very strikingly here at the introduction to Prestige Classes in the Dungeon Master's Guide:

I still run 3.5e. We're using it to play dungeons of Drakkenheim right now. I have never had a lot of the problems I see people moan about online. Yes, it gets unwieldy after about 9th level. So mostly my campaigns end at around that point. We're usually tired of the characters and situations we're in by then anyway, and we move to a new spot in the campaign world, and begin again.

In all the years we've played (since the day we got the new books when they were first published) I've probably had 5 prestige classes taken. I've had about a dozen multiclass characters. And NEVER had a wizard take a spellcasting feat. Or make a magic item. We just don't. And guess what? The game isn't broken. So yeah, it can be done just fine. YMMV.

 

[James Gasik]

You know, I've never seen a character take the multiclassing penalty. Every race has a favored class that isn't calculated to determine if you have the penalty (save for Humans, who just ignore their highest level class), and you only take the penalty if one class is 2 or more levels higher than the rest.

Prestige Classes don't count for calculating the penalty either.

A friend of mine once made an Elf, who, by the time the game ended, was a Fighter 2, Rogue 3, Barbarian 2, Ranger 2, Scout 3. The character had all the skills he wanted, and he felt no need to even try to find a prestige class. His Will save was abysmal, of course, but ironically, not the lowest in that party (that honor went to our other Barbarian, who dipped Bard in order to become a Dragon Disciple...and still had a worse Will save. Fun times with that group).

 

[Sepulchrave II]

The strength of 3.X lies in the sheer volume of material which is available - and that's only counting official products. When you include 3PP then it becomes astronomical.

I think that with a game so broad, you really need to decide what you want to exclude, and by only including the elements you want, you can really create a unique feel and experience. And by including everything, you can’t really make something logical and coherent. Excluding even core elements is possible because there are so many other options. Don't want Clerics of Druids? - ban them, there's plenty of alternatives to choose from to fill that niche. Don't want Dwarves? Gnomes? Elves? - no problem.

In terms of what it's good at? Well, anything, really. But it does take a fair bit of work to get to that point, and I think that investment is kind of unavoidable. That said, once you've decided which elements you want to include in your palette, I've found the only real obstacle is physical in the number of books you need to cross-reference.

 

[Yora]

I'd missed Yora's comment about the level capping; thanks for bringing it to my attention, as it makes my second point mostly moot.

That said, at that point I have to wonder why I'm bothering with 3e if we're going to ignore a third of the intended playspace.

That argument always comes up. And did so back in the day all the time as well.

"If you don't like it, why do you play it?"

But to that my counterpoint has always been "Then what play instead?"

If we make a retroclone that is just like 3rd edition, except for one third of the content, then why not just play 3rd edition without one third of the content?

 

[Yora]

The strength of 3.X lies in the sheer volume of material which is available - and that's only counting official products. When you include 3PP then it becomes astronomical.

I think that with a game so broad, you really need to decide what you want to exclude, and by only including the elements you want, you can really create a unique feel and experience. And by including everything, you can’t really make something logical and coherent. Excluding even core elements is possible because there are so many other options. Don't want Clerics of Druids?

That's exactly the thing that draw me back after all those years. I had an idea for a setting and campaign forming, and very quickly realized that 3rd edition has all the things I need, (Partly because many parts were inspired by memories of 3rd edition books.)

Spoiler: Let me tell you about my campaign idea

Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, Monsters of Faerûn, Manual of the Planes, Lords of Madness.

Reskinned high elves, grey elves, wood elves, half-elves, avariel, goliaths, and goblins for PCs.
(Ogers and ghouls as options to be introduced later.)

Bards, monks, paladins, and sorcerers are out.
Psions and wilders are in. (Only egoist, seer, and telepath psions.)

Hard level cap at 12th. 11th and 12th level NPCs play the role of epic level characters in the setting, with 6th level spells being these very rare miraculous powers.

Chitines, gnolls, grimlocks, quaggoths, skum as main wild humanoids.

Plane of Faerie as main otherworld, home of fey'ri, yuan-ti, and elementals.

Plane of Shadows takes on all the functions of the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane.
It's the borderworld that conncets to the home plane of aboleths, doppelgangers, kraken, mind flayers, and tsochari.
No other outer planes or elemental planes; no outsider type creatures. (A few become fey instead.)

Psionics gets reflavored to be the Arcane abilities from Bloodborne.