D&D 3.x 3rd Edition Revisited - Better play with the power of hindsight?

But I don't accept that as given: See below.

The assumptions I'm making are:
1. The median income for characters of Nth level is N-squared gp per day. That applies to NPCs and NPC-class NPCs as well as to PCs and retired PCs. I drop the conceit that "1 gp is big money! Enough for an average 1st level NPC to live on for a week or more!"

I don't see any reason a PC has to follow that rule. That's at best a social construct, and PCs break those all the time. At a certain point luxury for luxury's sake is only what a subset of people who want money want; others happy to get enough and quit, and they can exceed what they'd make in mundane life as a PC relatively early.

Basically, I don't much care what the game theoretically tells you people of X level will want; it also tells you what various things cost, and you can cover pretty good ones much earlier and cheaper than those listed costs.
Now the "by the book" D&D background material tries to force the contradiction of D&D being simultaneously a Realm of Golden Glamor & Wealth and a Dung Age Place. If you really want to keep the second part, with its conceit of "1gp is enough for a 1st level peasant to live on for a week, 10 days, or even two weeks" then that calls for cutting my assumed figures by a factor of 10. And then yes, the wealth required to retire "rich" is cut down to something obtainable by a 5th level character with only a little more wealth grubbing than normal for 5th level adventuring.

And that's exactly my view.

But I find "1gp is a lot of wealth, in the mundane sense" to be an assumption that unnecessarily makes already-crazy D&D economics even more so. My judgment, my aesthetic sense - my taste, if you will - says to drop that assumption and so make things slightly less crazy.

That's your choice, but I'm talking about the listed prices, not what makes the economy make sense. The D&D economy has never made sense. As I said, I'm talking about what's already there.
 

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We are talking about a game where you could buy a ladder and sell it as a pair of 10' poles to make a profit, right? I don't think a critical examination of how wealth works in 3.x is going to get anyone anywhere. The WBL rules exist as an attempt (not really a great one, sadly) to balance characters. It shouldn't be taken as representative of how actual wealth would function in-universe, because that way lies madness.
 

I don't see any reason a PC has to follow that rule. That's at best a social construct, and PCs break those all the time. At a certain point luxury for luxury's sake is only what a subset of people who want money want; others happy to get enough and quit, and they can exceed what they'd make in mundane life as a PC relatively early.

Basically, I don't much care what the game theoretically tells you people of X level will want; it also tells you what various things cost, and you can cover pretty good ones much earlier and cheaper than those listed costs.
Sure, a PC can always choose to spend only enough to live a modest or even an ascetic life. What they can't do is live that modest life while simultaneously claiming "I am living the life of a well-off member of the gentry; I am living the life of someone who is rich." At best, they can live a life of genteel poverty at that level of spending.

That's your choice, but I'm talking about the listed prices, not what makes the economy make sense. The D&D economy has never made sense. As I said, I'm talking about what's already there.
I look at the listed prices and conclude that living in modest comfort at those prices calls for an income of 1-3 gp per day, not 1-3 sp per day. If you want to set "can live comfortably at the listed prices" as representing someone unusually well off, or even outright rich, by the standards of the setting, rather than just living comfortably without being particularly well-off, then, well, that's your choice. You can force that interpretation on your game. But it isn't the only possible interpretation.

In particular, and getting back to my original point: Your interpretation is not the only reasonable standard by which to judge when an adventuring character can call himself rich and retire.
 

Sure, a PC can always choose to spend only enough to live a modest or even an ascetic life. What they can't do is live that modest life while simultaneously claiming "I am living the life of a well-off member of the gentry; I am living the life of someone who is rich." At best, they can live a life of genteel poverty at that level of spending.

They're still rich as hell by the standard of most people in the setting. Millionaires are still pretty wealthy by most people's standards in our world even though they aren't billionaires and the latter wouldn't take them seriously.

I look at the listed prices and conclude that living in modest comfort at those prices calls for an income of 1-3 gp per day, not 1-3 sp per day. If you want to set "can live comfortably at the listed prices" as representing someone unusually well off, or even outright rich, by the standards of the setting, rather than just living comfortably without being particularly well-off, then, well, that's your choice. You can force that interpretation on your game. But it isn't the only possible interpretation.

The point is, I've seen characters that could live for several year even by your standard by the money they'd acquired by modest levels. It was even more common in the old days (the only reason 3e characters would have less was they had more that was relevant to their adventuring career to actually spend some of their money on).
 
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They're still rich as hell by the standard of most people in the setting. Millionaires are still pretty wealthy by most people's standards in our world even though they aren't billionaires and the latter wouldn't take them seriously.
Rich by the standard of most people in the settings you prefer. Those settings are not the only possible ones.

People living at the poverty line in the US are rich as hell by the standards of third- and fourth-world nations, or by 19th century standards. That doesn't make them rich in an absolute sense.
The point is, I've seen characters that could live for several year even by your standard by the money they'd acquired by modest levels. It was even more common in the old days (the only reason 3e characters would have less was they had more that was relevant to their adventuring career to actually spend some of their money on).
They can live comfortable lives for several years - that much we agree on. But we disagree about whether that level of wealth counts as "rich by any reasonable standard."
 

Rich by the standard of most people in the settings you prefer. Those settings are not the only possible ones.

Rich as hell by the standard of the price lists they provide. I'm not going to try and guess what every GM in the world changes those numbers to.

They can live comfortable lives for several years - that much we agree on. But we disagree about whether that level of wealth counts as "rich by any reasonable standard."

So you disagree. That doesn't change my position.
 

I've recently been going again through the old 3rd edition books Manual of the Planes, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Lords of Madness looking for ideas for a campaign concept I am entertaining. There's a bunch of really interesting content in those books, and it occurred to me that I don't know any other game or even edition of D&D that would let you replicate many of those without very extensive rewriting. Pathfinder 1st edition maybe, but that's still mostly the same game. And that in turn had me opening up to at least entertaining the idea that perhaps 3rd edition might be a game that actually plays decently well if you run it the right way.

I first started to be interested in RPG just a few weeks before 3rd edition came out, and so I actually waited that long to get the new books right on release as the very first game system I would try to learn. I stuck to it exclusively through its entire run and then to Pathfinder for another two or three years. I think I had close to every single 3rd edition book that was released for at least a while before I resold about half of them. (Except for the Prestige Class, spells, and items books.) I've also been a lot on the Giant In the Playground forum and RPG.net (before it went mad). So unlike with all the original OSR discussions where I only had other people's words to go with, with 3rd edition I lived through it all myself.
While I was all in on all of that at the time, I've seen first hand all the stupid nonsense about the reception of, and culture around that game, which at the end of it convinced me that 3rd edition was a complete mess and the d20 system a really terrible engine for "Roleplaying™" Games. (Yes, I partook generously in that OSR stuff that became popular at the time.)

But considering now how the game would play in practice now that I have some 15 more years as GM under my belt with a far broader horizon of what games and campaigns can be, I've actually been a bit appalled at how I remember myself running this game (and Pathfinder) in the 2000s. Man, I was really bad. But so seems to have been everyone else I've encountered in the common discourse around the game back in those days.

I don't really have much of a thesis here on what exactly 3rd edition did wrong and what about it was actually really bad design. But I have developed a hypothesis over this month that perhaps the way I have seen 3rd edition played, and heard it self-reported being played by other people, and the general sense of disappointment I've seen about it in recent years, might not actually be primarily the fault of the game rules as they are designed, but by the way we tried to use them.

Maybe the negative and disappointing experiences many people seem to have made with the game are not because it is a bad tool, but because we tried to make it do things it was not meant for?

One thing that I find to be very noticeable with 3rd edition in hindsight is that there seems to be a very considerable disconnect between the people who designed the main rules set of the game, and the people who actually wrote the majority of supplements over the game's seven year run. Manifested very strikingly here at the introduction to Prestige Classes in the Dungeon Master's Guide:

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Yeah, everyone who has read more than three 3rd edition books knows that this is not at all how the D&D product catalog evolved after the release of the Core Rulebooks. I'm going entirely by memory here, but the old 3rd edition website had index lists of all feats, PrCs, and spells that appeared in the official WotC 3rd edition rulebooks and supplements, and I am pretty sure the total list of PrCs was over 700. (Also over 1,000 feats.)
WotC was always in the money business, and money is made by selling books. And character options sell books. So as long as players were paying for it, they spewed out an endless stream of races, classes, prestige classes, items, and spells. As I remember it, PrCs were the main selling points of the dozen or so book specifically addressed to players. And of course 90% of them were complete shovelware junk that nobody remembers. But the remaining ones really fed the leviathan that was Character Optimization. In my perception, CharOps became the dominant aspect of the 3rd edition online culture and discourse. I agree that it was a very fun hobby where you can sink hundreds of hours into discovering new unintended combinations of abilities and items that were probably written by two people who had no awareness of each others' works. And it's something that you can argue about and defend in discussions much more so than the vague generalizations of how you prepare adventures. But that was playing with the rules of the game. It was not playing the game.

Okay, rhetoric ramblings aside, my current interest is in re-reading, re-examining, and researching the actually written mechanics of the three Core Rulebooks and separating it from what players in the 2000s thought the game to be or wished the game to be, and what the publisher found to be the most efficient way to sell books. Was 3rd edition a hot mess? Yes. But was it a badly designed game system from the start or did the problem lie with how the game was received?
For a very long time, D&D 3rd edition was widely regarded as the game that can do any kind of fantasy campaign that you could think of. (And even non-fantasy games with the many d20 spin-off game systems.) But I think this can very unequivocally dismissed as wrong. I think pretty much everyone now agrees that no game system is a good for any imaginable campaign. Any good system is still only good at the one thing it is made for.

What I am wondering now is, what kind of adventures, campaigns, and play style is D&D 3rd edition actually best at? What part of the rules seem to have been widely misunderstood or misapplied? And what small tweaks might make a major positive difference?
The base 3.0 game wasn’t bad, still isn’t. I prefer it to 5th. We had a ton of fun to about 8th level but dnd has always been a better at low levels game.
 

I had a discussion the other day with some friends about which version of D&D we liked best. My breakdown was this:

2e for lore and interesting settings.

3e for player options.

4e for the DM, with encounters being very easy to build and run.

5e for newer players. Not as complex as previous editions, fewer options and decision points. Characters aren't as durable as 4e ones, but healing is unlimited and players can still punch well above their weight class.

Nothing comes close to 3e for the wide variety of characters one can build and play, with support for almost any character idea you can think of. They may not be very good, but you can still do it. From playing a Wizard/Sorcerer to a Warblade who can almost hang with the casters, to psionics, characters who laugh at the concept of a 5 minute workday, to even stranger things like binders and totemists. With class ability swaps, variant races, wacky books like Savage Species, and more, if you want to play a Redeemed Succubus Paladin/Soulknife, you totally can.

Or like this meme attests:

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You may not be a very good character, but you can definitely be what you chose to be.
 

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