D&D 5E 4.5e: the Spring Cleaning Edition.

[M.L. Martin]

I really like the idea of making basics attacks of all kinds key off the highest stat.

I prefer the idea of removing stat modifiers from attack rolls altogether, myself, but that's definitely a 5E-level change.

 

[Vael]

Huh. I support the idea of "spring cleaning" 4e, but looking at this thread reminds me that we all have very different ideas of what that means.

For example ... I have a different concept of feat taxes. Expertise and Defense feats, to me, are not feat taxes. I rather like that they differentiate characters and show a growing space between their weapons/implements of expertise and what they merely are proficient with. To me, feat taxes are the feats that really ought to be class features. Intelligent Blademaster, for example. I think every class deserves a decent basic attack.

I'd rather target the "Improved build-specific Class Feature" feats. So, while "Backstabber" is okay, "Improved Fate of the Void", "Improved Staff of Defense" or "Improved Darkspiral Aura" are all feats that should just go right into class progression. I'm also not a fan of feats that enable striker bonuses to be reused on an action point ... you should be able to do that from the start.

 

[herrozerro]

I prefer the idea of removing stat modifiers from attack rolls altogether, myself, but that's definitely a 5E-level change.

Though short of that, in 4e it could defintaly be changed to be:

Basic Attack
Highest Ability vs AC
1[w] + highest mod damage

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Class feats and racial feats really need to make a comeback. When you have classes like the Bladesinger and Vampire the only thing that really separates these types of classes is the name of the character and a few odds and ends here and there.

 

[keterys]

For example ... I have a different concept of feat taxes. Expertise and Defense feats, to me, are not feat taxes. I rather like that they differentiate characters and show a growing space between their weapons/implements of expertise and what they merely are proficient with. To me, feat taxes are the feats that really ought to be class features. Intelligent Blademaster, for example. I think every class deserves a decent basic attack.

I'd rather target the "Improved build-specific Class Feature" feats. So, while "Backstabber" is okay, "Improved Fate of the Void", "Improved Staff of Defense" or "Improved Darkspiral Aura" are all feats that should just go right into class progression. I'm also not a fan of feats that enable striker bonuses to be reused on an action point ... you should be able to do that from the start.

I can't follow that train of logic...

Assault Swordmages can use Str for their basics (in theory one of the few benefits of being Assault), but Int should be built in to all swordmages. Meanwhilst, Backstabber is an okay feat, but the warlock equivalents aren't - or the more bursty equivalent of Backstabber (Slaying Action)?

Either basic functionality stuff is good or bad. Either folks can differentiate their build or not. Either way, I can't reconcile your view on expertise, improved defenses (many defenders would argue these are as important as a basic attack), and other stuff.

Me, I'd like a lot more feats to be flavorful rather than mechanicful. Like... the various turn undead feats didn't greatly increase power, but did offer additional options. Staff Expertise is _way_ off the plantation, in comparison.

 

[the Jester]

I don't so much mind the drip-feeding of rules updates and changes we get, but at the same time, there are things in the system now that just need to be fixed in one, big, fell swoop.

- All monsters updated to MM3 format, complexity AND math.

We are getting these for free at a slow dribble.

- Errata the level-up chart to include math fixes to attacks and NADs.
- Clean up all the useless and redundant feats.
- Over-haul all the classes to refocus and rebalance them with all the above.
- Address long-standing concerns over things like 'permafrost/frostcheese'.
- Give all melee-based classes a primary-stat melee basic attack.
- Give all ranged-based classes a primary-stat ranged basic attack.

This isn't a spring cleaning, this is a significant rewrite.

To be honest, I'm not interested in re-buying material I already have spent money on with a few adjustments. If you recall, WotC had a book planned that was essentially going to do this with the PH1 classes, and they pulled it from the schedule, presumably because they realized that it wouldn't sell enough to justify printing it.

I don't think the classes on the whole need rebalancing, nor do I think that all classes need primary stat basic attacks.

I really think that 4e is at a point where a good, thorough, spring-cleaning could really revitalise and reinvigorate the edition to the point where it would gain at least another 3-5 more years before another edition was even remotely needed or warranted. And I, for one, would be very happy with such an update to the point where I'd even be happy to forgo new material for awhile whilst everyone at WotC concentrated on this one project.

This wouldn't make existing 4e players very happy; it would be the whole "Aargh WotC shot my dog and made me buy these redundant books" thing all over again. The lack of new material would be crushing to 4e players that like new material; all the stuff pulled from the publishing list over the last year has already left a lot of us spending a significantly lower amount of money on D&D than we might have otherwise. And people unhappy with 4e, who might be drawn back into the fold by a good 5e system, won't have any interest at all in it.

While I like the basic idea of cleaning up the mess, I think all that is needed is monster updates to the new math, and the feat cleanup is desirable. The rest, not so much. And like I said, I certainly wouldn't pay again for the same books + errata.

 

[Vael]

I can't follow that train of logic...

Assault Swordmages can use Str for their basics (in theory one of the few benefits of being Assault), but Int should be built in to all swordmages. Meanwhilst, Backstabber is an okay feat, but the warlock equivalents aren't - or the more bursty equivalent of Backstabber (Slaying Action)?

All Swordmages use INT as their primary stat, so yes, Intelligent Blademaster should be a class feature, I don't agree that that's a balance bonus for Assault Swordmages. The Assault Swordmage, given it's strikery nature, should gain STR-mod damage to his melee basic when he uses his Aegis. And Ensnaring need something else, but not in terms of an Ensnaring Swordmage only feat.

As for the Warlock ... feats that enhance Warlock's Curse are fine, just like Backstabber enhances Sneak attack, something all Rogues get. Feats that enhance your specific Pact boon, or feats that enhance your Warlord's Commanding Presence, or the Rogue's Rogue Tactics are bad.

Either basic functionality stuff is good or bad. Either folks can differentiate their build or not. Either way, I can't reconcile your view on expertise, improved defenses (many defenders would argue these are as important as a basic attack), and other stuff.

Spring Cleaning, to me, is reducing clutter and also improving organization. Right now, the Compendium lists 3123 feats. I like Class-specific feats, but I don't like Class and Build specific Feats, or Race+Class feats. I don't want feats for Eladrin Fighters. I want Eladrin Feats, and Fighter Feats.

What I want is feats to go into big, clearly labeled bins. Here are "Expertise Feats", here are "Defense Boosting Feats", "Eladrin Feats", "Fighter Feats", etc. The problem right now with the builder is sorting through the obscene number of feats that are in the general sections.

Me, I'd like a lot more feats to be flavorful rather than mechanicful. Like... the various turn undead feats didn't greatly increase power, but did offer additional options. Staff Expertise is _way_ off the plantation, in comparison.

True, which is why pulling some feats right into the character progression will leave more space for flavour feats.

 

[keterys]

I can totally get behind bigger buckets. I think WotC has since realized that "Eladrin Fighter" was too restrictive.