D&D 5E 4.5e: the Spring Cleaning Edition.

[Kzach]

Alternatively this thread could be called, "The Monk Basics thread made me do it!"

I really don't need a 5e. But what I would like to see is 4e getting a 'spring clean'. I don't so much mind the drip-feeding of rules updates and changes we get, but at the same time, there are things in the system now that just need to be fixed in one, big, fell swoop.

- All monsters updated to MM3 format, complexity AND math.
- Errata the level-up chart to include math fixes to attacks and NADs.
- Clean up all the useless and redundant feats.
- Over-haul all the classes to refocus and rebalance them with all the above.
- Address long-standing concerns over things like 'permafrost/frostcheese'.
- Give all melee-based classes a primary-stat melee basic attack.
- Give all ranged-based classes a primary-stat ranged basic attack.

There are probably more but at the moment I can't think of any. Basically, none of the above are such major changes that I think they'd warrant being called 5e. But if done would still represent a fairly significant change, and so would warrant being called 4.5e. I know a lot of people call Essentials 4.5e but IMO all E-classes did was muddy the waters and provide different options, not replacement options (not considering the E-feats since feats in general get overwritten just by merit of being new, rather than in what they were published).

I really think that 4e is at a point where a good, thorough, spring-cleaning could really revitalise and reinvigorate the edition to the point where it would gain at least another 3-5 more years before another edition was even remotely needed or warranted. And I, for one, would be very happy with such an update to the point where I'd even be happy to forgo new material for awhile whilst everyone at WotC concentrated on this one project.

 

[blalien]

- All monsters updated to MM3 format, complexity AND math.

Please yes. It wouldn't even be that hard. You could just get a computer program to do all the work.

- Errata the level-up chart to include math fixes to attacks and NADs.

Wizards has said they are reluctant to make such a fundamental change to the game at this point. It's easy to implement yourself: just add +1 to all attacks and defenses per tier.

- Clean up all the useless and redundant feats.

Wizards does not want to completely eliminate any feats because some players might still use them, for example players who bought the original PHB but never found out about essentials. But they should add a tag to obsolete feats on the compendium, linking them to the updated version.

- Over-haul all the classes to refocus and rebalance them with all the above.

This is not spring cleaning. This is tearing down the house and rebuilding it from the ground up. Overhauling all the classes might as well be 5th edition.

- Address long-standing concerns over things like 'permafrost/frostcheese'.

I'm afraid I'm ignorant on this one, so I have no comment.

- Give all melee-based classes a primary-stat melee basic attack.
- Give all ranged-based classes a primary-stat ranged basic attack.

I agree. I don't know off the top of my head which classes do not yet have a basic attack at-will. For melee classes, there is at least the Melee Training feat, and ranged basic attacks don't really come up that much.

 

[keterys]

- All monsters updated to MM3 format, complexity AND math.

They have been doing this, very slowly. The overall process will take hundreds of man-hours, though.

- Errata the level-up chart to include math fixes to attacks and NADs.

Better to treat it like inherent - make a standard house rule to add a +1/tier feat bonus, add it to the CB, move on.

It is possible to cleanup, but an elegant and complete fix would involve surgery on a large number of things - including a few dozen feats (though Epic Fort/Ref/Will should get fixed regardless), some items, maybe a race or two (like ones that get a defense bonus when they got two stats in same defense, but now can avoid with flex stats), masterwork in general, etc.

- Clean up all the useless and redundant feats.

There are a few thousand feats that would need to be examined and probably several hundred to drop, several hundred to revise. Major undertaking, another several hundred man-hours.

- Over-haul all the classes to refocus and rebalance them with all the above.

That's... a tricky proposition. I'm fine with it, but realize we're now talking about examining a few thousand powers, as well. This is firmly in the land of an _actual_ 4.5 (ala 3.5) with a full development cycle, books, etc.

- Address long-standing concerns over things like 'permafrost/frostcheese'.

They did do a gather information on that... as an aside, here's a list of things people brought up for the "What's broken in 4E" thread WotC did a bit back. To frame the scale of what else is on there besides frostcheese.

- Give all melee-based classes a primary-stat melee basic attack.

Do powers like Virtuous Strike count - or have to be like the way the Thief is?

- Give all ranged-based classes a primary-stat ranged basic attack.

Acid Orb, or more like Eldritch Blast?

While we're talking basic attacks, I'd like to see no basic attacks prone or do forced movement (they break movement assumptions, things like Polearm Gamble and Repel Charge, etc)

At any rate, I think it'd be more like a Year-And-A-Spring cleaning. Doesn't mean I'd be totally opposed, but... may be more reasonable to break into small chunks.

 

[ppaladin123]

I hold out hope for the big December errata. There is a good chance we'll see something addressing MBAs and RBAs for classes like the Battlemind. Mearls promised to work on that one in a reply on this board a year ago, and it is one of the issues delivered to the designers back when they solicited feedback on what was borked.

 

[Kzach]

- Over-haul all the classes to refocus and rebalance them with all the above.

This is not spring cleaning. This is tearing down the house and rebuilding it from the ground up. Overhauling all the classes might as well be 5th edition.

Gotta consider the level of overhauling I'm talking about. I'm not saying redesign them from the ground-up, but rather fix the inconsistencies and the little issues that plague many of the classes. Things like, as a prime example, the monk's Unarmed Combatant feature not using Dex as its attack stat.

 

[delericho]

If they hadn't done Essentials, a true 4.5e would have been a godsend - a great opportunity to clean out the many junk options that are littering the system, and the bring all the rest up to the latest standards.

Having done Essentials, I don't think they can reasonably do another 'partial' revision - it's 5e or nothing. It is, of course, possible that 5e will look quite similar to 4e (as 2nd did to 1st Ed), although I would be fairly surprised if this was the case.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I would love to see a redone PHB I (and maybe II, as I think it is better balanced) as long as it is not like the class compendium articles that just nerfed and did not address underlying problems. Side Rant: Why cannot errata improve!!!!!!

I would be happy to buy a new PHBI that had the classes therein updated and improved a bit. That would be a good way to help 4E's staying power.

 

[herrozerro]

I really like the idea of making basics attacks of all kinds key off the highest stat.

 

[Zaran]

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Wizards has said they are reluctant to make such a fundamental change to the game at this point. It's easy to implement yourself: just add +1 to all attacks and defenses per tier.

Wizards does not want to completely eliminate any feats because some players might still use them, for example players who bought the original PHB but never found out about essentials. But they should add a tag to obsolete feats on the compendium, linking them to the updated version.

I find this excuse by WotC pretty funny. If there is someone who still uses the old Weapon Expertise or Paragon Defenses feats, they will be the same people who ignore any errata. It's not like WotC can go in their homes and erase the feats from their pencil written character sheets.

Also, instead of deleting the feats, make them exactly the same as the ones that makes them obsolete. Non-existant problem solved.

 

[RangerWickett]

They did do a gather information on that... as an aside, here's a list of things people brought up for the "What's broken in 4E" thread WotC did a bit back. To frame the scale of what else is on there besides frostcheese.

Yikes.

So, um, yeah. Fix all of that. Easy, right?