[4e] Adding a few "classic" elements to D&D

[CapnZapp]

I was playing Torchlight and got thinking how I miss certain elements of that experience in my 4E game.

First off: No, I don't want to turn my game into a Diablo clone video-game...!

Secondly: More frequent awards. I admire how WFRP is built in such a way you can award a useful amount of XP each session. In D&D, getting 27,800 XP isn't immediately useful, if you have 602,000 XP until you level.

In Torchlight, you level all the time, but each level means less. In WFRP, you don't level ever, but instead each 100 XP can buy you a little something (a skill, a +5% ability upgrade, or a feat called "talent" in that game).

Has anyone re-jigged D&D so you can gain a meaningful upgrade each session? Without going from newbie hero till demigod in thirty sessions, that is? Perhaps if you expand the game to house 150 levels, and you roll a D100 instead; then you can "level" each session and still get a fairly sane power progression?

(You'd get a larger proportion of feats compared to plus bonuses; but I'm thinking that might not be such a bad thing. It would allow you to dip you feet into more than one specialization. With an abundance of feats you could take whole feat trees without giving up your core focus)

Thirdly; talent trees. Torchlight reminded me of how much I miss my WoW talent trees. Feats and such are fine I guess, but they lack focus. The flexibility of getting to choose between a thousand feats (literally!) is nice, but I would love "feat trees" where the added focus meant you had something to look forward to.

Like those gladiator feats you can take as a multiclass; but applied generally to the game.

Cool treasure. There's no denying it - treasure in this game is much sexier than most 4E items. Whether that can be accomplished without giving up on 4E's commendable "items are nice but not necessary" philosophy is another question. I just want the LOOTY loot!

Fifth - Item sockets. It is way too cool to be able to upgrade/customize your weapons and other stuff with miscellaneous extra enhancements (think gems in slots) not to have this in our D&D game!


Oh well, I guess I need another fix of dungeon bashing... later!

 

[Henry]

Here's an oddball thought: break each level into X "packets" of XP, over the spectrum from one level to the next. Need 1000 XP to level? Make it 10 packets of 100. With every 100 xp, allow the players to pick up one of the abilities that they get when they level. Since everyone gains the same number of abilites per level (their to-hits, defense bonuses, powers, feats, hit points, etc.) it's even across the board. PCs can choose how soon they get a certain ability rather than waiting until level-up to get them all.
So, between 1st and second level, they can get a +1 to hit, +1 to defenses, +X hit points, utility power, and feat. That's five abilities, so every 200 xp they get to choose which one to level up in.

You WILL have some uneven-ness in your character ability, it's sure; however, it's not likely to be enough to harm gameplay irreparably if a PC has an extra +1 about a level early, or has one encounter power one level early. If it doesn't work well, stagger the encounter level about one level higher, perhaps.

 

[darjr]

The king has a great idea. I'll have to try that some time.

 

[dbm]

It's a fundamental limitation of level-based systems that they give you a smaller number of bigger increases. Points based systems like WFRP, GURPS and HERO give you an infinite number of small increments. This aspect of DnD is one of it's 'proud nails' to me.

Cheers,
Dan

 

[Ketjak]

Tiers of Improvement

I am willing to kill a person if that's what it takes to ensure a token does not expire between when I start a reply and click the REPLY button. Better yet, how about a Goddamned better forum that will preserve the contents of a form field rather than completely resetting them when the user hits BACK?

Anyway.

You can break the benefits of leveling up and award those benefits at discrete milestones within the level. The benefits that come to mind are:

+1/2 to attack, each defense, skills, and initiative (and I think healing surge count)
+X hit points
+new feat (conditional per level)
+new power (conditional per level)

...and so on. I'm not bothering to create an exhaustive list. You can get the picture.

I would hand these out at every 1/10th or so of a level. If that thing isn't available at that level (like feats on odd levels, or powers at 4th level) nothing gets rewarded or a suitable award (like +1 to one stat) is awarded at the gap.

I'd give them out in a standard order, but you don't have to. I can see a decent DM giving out these benefits by letting the players choose, and not giving out another of the same benefit until the entire stock of benefits is emptied. This may entail more record-keeping, but it could be worth it.

The other neat thing about this system is that it effectively eliminates levels and lets the players control the short-term pace of their advancement. The DM can stop tracking XP rewards entirely and let the players choose a benefit when he feels the players have earned one. Smacks of a point-based system, but that's not terrible in and of itself.

I don't recommend it, but the DM could blow the lid off the system entirely and let the players choose from the same set of options at each milestone. The DM would have to restrict certain choices (attack and defense values spring to mind) to avoid an escalating arms race.

 

[Ketjak]

Bloody Hell, more or less what Henry said.

 

[CapnZapp]

Here's an oddball thought: break each level into X "packets" of XP, over the spectrum from one level to the next. Need 1000 XP to level? Make it 10 packets of 100. With every 100 xp, allow the players to pick up one of the abilities that they get when they level. Since everyone gains the same number of abilites per level (their to-hits, defense bonuses, powers, feats, hit points, etc.) it's even across the board. PCs can choose how soon they get a certain ability rather than waiting until level-up to get them all.
So, between 1st and second level, they can get a +1 to hit, +1 to defenses, +X hit points, utility power, and feat. That's five abilities, so every 200 xp they get to choose which one to level up in.

You WILL have some uneven-ness in your character ability, it's sure; however, it's not likely to be enough to harm gameplay irreparably if a PC has an extra +1 about a level early, or has one encounter power one level early. If it doesn't work well, stagger the encounter level about one level higher, perhaps.

Well, yes, I could do that (and I'm sure many have).

But to me it would be painfully obvious where the "real" levels are, and where you're only getting spoon-fed.

I was thinking of a more thorough redesign, where each "step" feels as integral as a level increase does now.

The simplest approach is to simply move from a D20 to a D100; increasing the "task resolution granularity" fivefold. In straight-forward terms, hand out a +1 bonus five times as often, but make each have only a fifth as large an impact!

To truly feel like a core mechanism, I don't want some steps to feel "bigger" than others, which is what you'll have if you keep the 30 levels of D&D only handing out that +1 every five levels (as you suggest; broadly). If you get a +1 each level, no increase is better or more important than any other, so each levelling feels as important as the next.

(Another way of looking at it is that if you divide a +1 into five steps of +0,2 each; only the final one that brings you up to a new whole number has any real effect on the game. I want away from that).

If you blow up the numbers by a factor of five, you
* can get a +1 bonus five times as often
* can keep the D20, just multiply its result by five; i.e. rolling D20x5. Each +1 bonus keeps its importance here; because you don't round the result. Of course, you can also switch to a D100.
* Heroic tier is levels 1-50; paragon 51-100; and epic levels 101-150.
* Enhancement bonuses go from +1 to +30.
* Hit points stay the same. Note that you can get a new hit point each level! (Every five levels Defenders get an additional hit point while Wizards get none)

So far, this is only a rough outline. Feel free to point out issues where I'd need to pay attention for it to work smoothly.

The crazy idea I'm going to leave you with is:

How about you still get a feat every other level!?

Yes, you'd get roughly two and a half times as many feats overall. But think of the scores and scores AND SCORES of feats that are out there (Compendium lists 1384 feats!) - would it upset the power balance so much if people could get more of them.

Possible pros and cons:
* You can specialize in more than one fighting style (weapon etc) without feeling you're sacrificing optimal build.
* Feat taxes won't feel so bad anymore. You can probably run with how a Paladin needs both Weapon and Implement Expertise straight from the book without any complaints.
* Infrequently taken feats might see some attention - if only because you have to take 25 feats each tier!
* Whenever you get a bonus feat (such as all humans), you probably ought to get two (at least). Otherwise that feature might feel weak.
* It's probably a good idea to loosen the multiclass restrictions a bit. It seems reasonable to allow a character to take a "feat tree multiclass" such as spellscarred or gladiator in addition to the regular limit on one MC (be that another feat tree or a "true" class multiclass)...

 

[Stalker0]

But to me it would be painfully obvious where the "real" levels are, and where you're only getting spoon-fed.

Is it?

If last chunk I got a +1 to everything, this chunk I get a new feat, and the next chunk I get a new power....which one is the "real level"?

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

I wonder if that d100 approach isn't too far the other direction - that is, each little gain is no longer meaningful because the increase is so infinitesimal. I like frequent gains too, but I like them to mean something. There's also the point where constant gains are no longer fun because "I always get something." I'm going to be starting a campaign (of sorts) in the near future where each character has 5 additional background "slots" per tier, though you can only start with one starting background benefit. At the end of a module*, you can create a small background-like benefit from something interesting you did during the module. You can then swap those out as you progress and grow and the campaign moves around.

A couple examples: A character is involved in long negotiations with Elves but requires a translator. At the end of the module he can take
Broken Elven - Long hours listening to your interpreter speak Elven taught you a few words here and there. While you are not fluent, you can make an INT check against the complexity of a document or conversation (DC at DM's discretion) to get the basic idea of what is being communicated.

A fighter holds a half-dozen skeleton minions at bay while his party completes a ritual to shut down the necromantic energy doodad. That fighter can take
Slayer of Skeletons - You gain a +1 to attack and AC against skeletal creatures. As you fight more skeletons, you may use additional slots to increase this bonus, up to +5.


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*it's an LFR-style campaign run on MapTools, but entirely homebrewed. Basically, my schedule isn't consistent enough to run an entire campaign on my own but would like to toy around with some different rules and stuff. I'm hoping other DMs on the MT forums will build off of my stuff.

 

[pawsplay]

If you guys like d100, HARP, Rolemaster, and Runequest are all very solid systems.