4E Burnout - What to do next?

[Rechan]

I also hear good things about Swords and Wizardry, including character sheets that can fit on an index card.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thanks for the suggestion. HERO is actually a game I've never even owned, so I'm tempted to at least pick up a copy of the core rules. Which edition do you recommend?

Mechanically, HERO has changed very little since its introduction. Most revisions refined point costs for balance and a few mechanics got added. 6th, the newest, is the biggest revision in some time, and is, to my eye, the least abusable.

All that said, I think any of 4th, 5th, 5thRevor 6th would be good to work with for a fantasy game. Each of those editions has fairly balanced math, and has sourcebooks covering not just the Fantasy HERO stuff- not required, but with all the work done for a host of armor, weapons and spells- and an Ultimate Martial Artist sourcebook with an additional martial arts maneuvers.*

My bet is that the 4th books in question are your best bargain- HERO, UMA, and the Fantasy HERO books- could be had for $60 total. Maybe $75 if you spring for the HERO hardcover.

5th or 5thRev would be a bit more expensive, but again, have better balance.

6th would be the priciest, of course, and as stated above, is the least abusable incarnation to date.

******

FWIW, I have to agree with suggestions for Savage Worlds. I haven't played it yet, but it looks good and seems pretty flexible.






* which, BTW may be usable with weapons, unlike D&D martial arts.

 

[S'mon]

Thanks for the suggestions [MENTION=93857]C4[/MENTION], especially #2 - that's pretty much what I'm going for, although am not sure how to break the "stranglehold of powers."

[MENTION=54846]Rechan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6667661]GregoryOatmeal[/MENTION], I've wanted to check out Castles & Crusades for awhile, if only because--from my sense of it--it tries to combine the best of recent advances in game design (the d20 mechanic) with a retro-feel. What product(s) would you recommend? From what I gather, I should pick up the Player's Handbook 4th printing...is the digest the same thing or an abbreviated version? What about the collector's box? Looking at this is a bit confusing.

Also, if it turns out you don't like the C&C ruleset, you can still use the adventures for AD&D. Heck, I used them for 3e!

 

[Mark CMG]

I did, but I'm assuming it will be some time before one will be able to run a full-fledged campaign with the rules. I imagine that they'll be sending out bits and pieces for people to try out rather than the core rules to start?

Have you playtested for them (or anyone) before? (Just curious.)

 

[C4]

Thanks for the suggestions [MENTION=93857]C4[/MENTION], especially #2 - that's pretty much what I'm going for, although am not sure how to break the "stranglehold of powers."

I'm not sure what you mean by the "stranglehold of powers," but it may take some time to get your players out of all-powers-all-the-time mode, no matter what you do. (Including experimenting with other systems.)

 

[Mercurius]

Have you playtested for them (or anyone) before? (Just curious.)

No, I haven't. Why do you ask?

I did sign up for the playtest; I'm assuming that we won't see anything until after D&D Experience. Or have I missed something?

I'm not sure what you mean by the "stranglehold of powers," but it may take some time to get your players out of all-powers-all-the-time mode, no matter what you do. (Including experimenting with other systems.)

What I mean is "having" to use a power, even an at-will power, and operating through the system of powers rather than narration first. I know, one can use basic attack, and most at-wills are essentially basic attacks with a bit of flair, but it is still a matter of taking a pre-set path rather than just improvising. Now I assume that someone has been able to use 4E in such a way that narration comes first and powers are applied afterwards, but I think it is difficult and that the rules don't easily facilitate it.

One more thing to add. In my experience, 4E more than any other version of D&D, creates a context in which the player plays his character much like a game piece; in other words, the default mode is to be one step removed, and not "be in" the character. In other words, in 4E it is easy to say "I use Attack on the Run" rather than "I run up to the opponent, firing two arrows."

In other words, I'd like to get back to an approach in which narration comes first and rules are applied only after the fact; I remain skeptical as to whether 4E can easily facilitate that without major tweaking.

In some ways I see 4E as being like a group of chamber musicians getting together and figuring which of a few dozen pieces of music they want to play. They've got a lot of choices but in the end they're all pre-configured choices and it isn't part of their idiom to to say "Let's just jam." This has been lacking in 4E, at least for me. In other words, if 4E is tightly written and played chamber music, I want something more akin to jazz.

 

[Mark CMG]

No, I haven't. Why do you ask?

I did sign up for the playtest; I'm assuming that we won't see anything until after D&D Experience. Or have I missed something?

Just wondering if your assmptions about the bits and pieces of rules was based on having done some playtesting before. I suppose a bits and pieces approach requires them to use either one specific ruleset then have playtesters add in the bits and pieces or possibly allows playtest groups to use whatever version of D&D they choose with the bits and pieces, if that's the thrust of the all-inclusive plan for 5E. I'm curious to find out how it will work and how much non-playtesters will know about the general manner of the playtesting.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

My suggestions:

TSR D&D -- If you go this route, I recommend playing the real deal (or a clone that is as close as possible to the real deal).

Basic Roleplaying -- There is a lot of cool stuff going on in the BRP world, at the moment. The Legend PDF is only $1.00, right now, as are a some of the supplements and Glorantha material. (Legend was previously Mongoose RQII.) The Basic Roleplaying gold book is full of possibilites. OpenQuest offers a solid and simple take on RQ. And there are a bunch of great setting and source books for BRP (especially some of the fantasy-historical stuff like Rome, Vikings, Merrie England, et cetera). Oh, and check out the Savage North setting/adventure book for OpenQuest.

Flashing Blades -- This is a cool and quite "old school" musketeer-style RPG. Check out Black Vulmea's Le Ballet de l'Acier (Dance of Steel) campaign to see some of the possibilities. And the game is available here in print and here in PDF.

Stars Without Number -- This is a cool, OD&D-based take on science fiction. I haven't played Stars Without Number, but it seems very impressive and it's on my list.

 

[scourger]

...I left 3.5 because of the grueling DM prep. 4e never took. I have been a Savage ever since and have not looked back.

Warning! It will ruin you for other games.

It's like you 2 are reading my mind.

For the OP, try Savage Worlds for free: http://www.peginc.com/Downloads/SWEX/TD06.pdf

Savage Worlds would be my first recommendation to you for a change of pace that is easy to run but robust enough to engage the players. But, it is a different system. We love it in our group and seem to run very little else these days.

Otherwise, I like the suggestions about going back an edition to d20. It is still pretty defined & tactical, but I really liked 3.0 (3.5 not so much but it is still good). The advantage to you is that many basics of d20 made their way to 4e, so you don't have to totally retrain to a new system. The 3 core books are still about 1200 pages, though. I wouldn't do it again but for my D&D minis to use in a game. The prep time can be staggering.

Along the lines of system mastery, you might give the new Gamma World a look. It is a streamlined 4e in the classic post-apoc setting. We picked it up with very little difficulty. Although we played only a few sessions of 4e, the d20 footprint is there to help the transition. It was a little too light on character options for my players to choose to continue, but I would like to finish the pre-ptinted modules. I think it could be smashing if I ran it again with giving the players more choices than random rolls for character creation/advancement and by making my own adventures. There are plenty of foes & counters in the basic game to be fun & challenging.

A neat twist could be transporting your existing 4e characters to Gamma World. Let the players keep all those complicated 4e options for their characters but run the game using the simpler Gamma World rules, if they really like their characters. This is sort of the Savage Worlds approach, by the way--simpler for the GM but still complicated enough for the players.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

@Rechan and @GregoryOatmeal , I've wanted to check out Castles & Crusades for awhile, if only because--from my sense of it--it tries to combine the best of recent advances in game design (the d20 mechanic) with a retro-feel. What product(s) would you recommend? From what I gather, I should pick up the Player's Handbook 4th printing...is the digest the same thing or an abbreviated version? What about the collector's box? Looking at this is a bit confusing.

I have no idea what that product you linked to was. Look up C&C on Amazon and the first thing you'll hit is a PHB.

When I started playing 2E in 1997, before we had cars and drivers licenses and hi-speed internet and printers for character sheets, we played with a 2E PHB, a 1E MM we bought from a library auction for a quarter, pencils, notebook paper and dice. We home-ruled a bunch of crap and didn't really figure out how the rules worked or even read the books. C&C's about getting back to that. If you were there in the TSR era you'll know what to do.

If you want to play the game right you should probably have the PHB and Monster book. Those are the only required books (the DMG is kind of like an arcana options/epic book for characters above level 12). I think the digest versions are just cheaper paperbacks with the same content.

But honestly the only C&C product I own is the PHB. I invested in a bunch of 1E/2E modules I never could afford the first go-around. The only conversion skill required (to play old TSR modules or use old TSR monster books) is being able to flip THAC0/AC to an ascending system (subtract the number from 20. It's easy). If I want to get away from the modules I just make up monsters and keep the stats in me head, like we used to do.

Screw it, don't buy anything. Take a test-drive and download the 30-page level 1 starter rules on the internet and dig up an old MM or copy of Keep on the Borderlands (flip AC/THAC0 so they ascend) or track down a free module. Or make something up. Like goblins have 1d6 hitpoints and about an 11 AC and small-category short-swords that do 1d4 dmg (you can just lift em from a 3E book). That sounds pretty accurate. If the starter guide doesn't say how to resolve critical hits just import the 4E rules (max damage). Or 3E, or the chart you found in the obscure 2E box set. Making rules up is often faster and more effective than looking them up. Not having everything explicitly stated in a 300 page book is a beautiful thing.

I really have a hard time trying to convince my PF-munchkin friends to play C&C, since they find it hard to identify with characters without hundreds of pages of feats and prestige classes to fall back on. They're right that every rogue basically has the same abilities and features no customization (and they should go dig up some old 2e kits). Still this is definitely my go-to game for all of the newbies I play with. They just shut down when they have to go through nearly a dozen stages of character creation to start gaming.

I can't recommend it highly enough.