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4E Burnout - What to do next?

You could always try Castles & Crusades, or Swords & Wizardry. Since you want that "old school" feel.

I would avoid HERO if you want small amounts of prep. That system ate my soul.

There are lots of ways to address the 4e problems. There have been many threads on the topic, so if you want to keep with it, there is also avenues to deal with that. I have a bit of specific advice there, but it's not for this thread. :)
 

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[MENTION=54846]Rechan[/MENTION], I realize that most of the specific problems have solutions, some of which I implemented when I was DMing. My default plan still is to start a new 4E campaign with those in mind, thus a more house ruled 4E. For instance, grind isn't much of a problem anymore because I was just lowering monster HP and/or implementing "kill-shots" when it became clear that a monster was going down anyway and it suited dramatic purposes (In other words, if a 282 HP monster had been reduced to 67 HP and a PC got a crit and did 52 HP, I'd call that monster kaput, or at least describe it as falling to the ground, trying to limp off, but then collapsing, unconscious, and they could finish it off). I am also planning on making magic items rarer but more powerful and interesting. Etc.

Now the problem that I can't get around, perhaps because it is so intrinsic to 4E, is the reliance on the power system itself. On one hand, I like powers - I like the fact that a ranger or a fighter has cool things they can do, or that a rogue isn't simply "backstab or zilch" in combat (although our party rogue is all about getting combat advantage, to the point that it irritates the rest of the group). I really like the idea of power sources, which--at least in theory--brings a kind of magical quality to a world, that all adventurers can "tap into" a different kind of energy and channel it into their actions. But what I'm struggling with is a feeling more than anything else that I think results from the power system, a feeling of claustrophobia derived not as much from the number of options but from being limited to a pre-set option.

Specifically, I'm talking what could be called the process of "diminishing powers" in combat. In most combats I start by using my Encounter powers first and then, if things are looking bad, going to Daily powers or, if the combat is winding down, using At-Wills. But it feels like old spellcasters use to feel: you're looking at a list of powers and crossing them off as you use them. There is nothing wrong with that, it is just that it is hard to break out of the box and do something that isn't a power (but can still be as effective as a power). Furthermore, once you use your great powers it is less exciting to use your at-wills (going from Attacks on the Run to Twin Strike is rather anticlimactic).

I know, page 42, right? That's a paradigm shift that's hard to make and for which there isn't a ton of guidance, especially in terms of combat. About a year and a half ago I tried to institute what I was calling a "stunt power" or a "spontaneous power," telling the players that they could make up a power on the fly, improvise something, and depending upon how creative their description was, I would award a certain effect (e.g. whether it was 2W or 3W, any condition it might cause, etc). No one, not once, took me up on it and it soon faded away into distant memory.

This is where I see powers as being somewhat--in a very rudimentary sense--"video gamey": by giving pre-set options they limit or, at least, don't encourage creative thinking and improvisation. In some sense I'd rather see powers vanish, spells return, and non-spellcasting characters get some kind of "power points" or "stunt points" that they can buff actions with. This would lead to the same result in terms of more elaborate effects that powers give, but leaves it in the hands of the players to come up with cool actions. I have barely thought this through, but here would be a comparative example:

4E approach:
I use Attacks on the Run and move seven squares, firing two arrows here and here, doing 3W + Dex damage each.

New approach:
I dart towards and past my enemy, firing two arrows while I'm running, spending four power points to buff my damage to 3W for each.

I'm not talking about the difference in description - they're both relative sparse and about the same; what I'm talking about is whether I'm choosing a pre-set option (a power, Attacks on the Run) or whether I'm visualizing an action and then using a game mechanic to boost the damage capacity. I'm not even sure if there is any RPG with a system like that, but I do think it could work within the framework of 4E.

In some ways I feel that 4E has accomplished the opposite of what it intended by giving more powers for non-casters to use. If a fighter has seven power choices rather than one, that seems like more options but the problem is that it is too easy to think "I have to choose one of these seven options" rather than "How can I spruce up my attack and do something cool?"

I suppose the spellcasting equivalent would be the difference between pre-set spell lists and improvised casting. I like both, but I want more flexibility and guidelines for doing the latter. In the same sense that, in martial combat, I like having cool maneuvers or stunts that I can do, but I'd also like to be able to make stuff up on the fly and not have to assign a pre-set power to it. That is, I don't want to have to say: I run towards my opponent, fire an arrow, then dart to the side and leap off the wall, firing another arrow as I jump over my companion's head...uhh, I already used Attacks on the Run so I suppose that is Twin Strike?
 

We're willing to try something different, maybe a different game or even genre altogether, but we'd also like a D&D experience that harkens back to a more "old school" approach--a simpler game, more improvisation and DM's adjudication vs. powers and rulebook checking, etc. Basically we want a D&D experience heavy on exploration, magic, lost histories and mysteries, interesting--but not overly complex--combats, etc.
Sounds like you're talking about Castles and Crusades. I can't recommend it highly enough. If you've ever played any D20 game (which obviously you have) there's no learning curve whatsoever.
 

Basically we both came to a point where we decided that we wanted a change, either a different game/edition or maybe just a different approach to 4E.
It might be a good time to take a break, or try a new system, but if it's just a matter of turning up the Fun Dial on 4e, I have a few suggestions:

1. Make sure your monsters use the new monster math, and lop a few HPs off the top where necessary.

2. Take page 42 guidelines with a large grain of salt. If you want players to do more improvised things, like pulling the carpet out from under an orc or swinging on a chandelier, tell your players you're making those choices more effective. Page 42 assumes that those things should be on par with at-wills, but there's no reason they shouldn't be like extra encounter powers. Pulling the rug knocks the orc prone and causes damage; swinging on the chandelier get you to the other end of the hall and lets you kick a bad guy on the way. (Inherent bonuses help with this stuff too!)

3. Any time an inflicted condition says "until your next turn," treat it as "until your target's next turn." It seriously nerfs a couple conditions (CA, defense penalties), but if your group is sick of the whoseturnwherewhatwhen aspect of combat, it cuts out like 90% of that.

4. As to magic items, have you considered using higher-level properties and powers, or homebrewing? I understand if those options don't seem satisfying or practical, though.

I'm not sure how to help you with the other things you mentioned. Strikers are supposed to deal more damage than non-strikers, if you want less combat in your game the solution seems obvious, and tactical savvy can be taught [at least somewhat].

Hope that helps.
 

Thanks for the suggestions [MENTION=93857]C4[/MENTION], especially #2 - that's pretty much what I'm going for, although am not sure how to break the "stranglehold of powers."

[MENTION=54846]Rechan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6667661]GregoryOatmeal[/MENTION], I've wanted to check out Castles & Crusades for awhile, if only because--from my sense of it--it tries to combine the best of recent advances in game design (the d20 mechanic) with a retro-feel. What product(s) would you recommend? From what I gather, I should pick up the Player's Handbook 4th printing...is the digest the same thing or an abbreviated version? What about the collector's box? Looking at this is a bit confusing.
 

The collectors box contains the current editions Big Three Books... PHB, DMG and MM equivalent. All you need in a hardcover slipcase with a nice little module thrown in.
 
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I've always been impressed by Savage Worlds and maybe it is worth a shot...

Don't walk, RUN to Pinnacle's website! You will not regret it (I would have Xp'd Conner, but I have to spread it around). I left 3.5 because of the grueling DM prep. 4e never took. I have been a Savage ever since and have not looked back.

Warning! It will ruin you for other games.
 

My advice would be to take a break for a session or two if the whole group feels that way. Trying doing something else. During the first break, maybe the group could play a board, card, or dice game while discussing where they'd like to go with a rpg experience. Maybe even go out as a group to see a movie or something. Just give yourselves the opportunity to look at things fresh.

I'd also suggest trying something other than D&D. If you don't mind being adventurous, maybe even try a non-d20 game for a bit. Again, the idea is to try something which will be fresh for you. Hopefully you'll also find something which better matches your ideal playstyle, tone, and feel. Even if you end up hating whatever it is that you'll try, you'll at least know what some of your other options are, and maybe it will help you solidify in your mind what you're looking for.
 

I really feel for you.
I had alot of buyers remorsew/4th and switched to Pathfinder but before
I switched I ran Villians and Vigilanties for a few months.It is a simple and awesome engine but the char creation as written is a littel wierd and unbalanced
switch to supers for a while!
 

Don't walk, RUN to Pinnacle's website! You will not regret it (I would have Xp'd Conner, but I have to spread it around). I left 3.5 because of the grueling DM prep. 4e never took. I have been a Savage ever since and have not looked back.

Warning! It will ruin you for other games.

It is a very good system. About the only kind of genre it doesn't do well is the 'Mecha genre, and it might do that if I took the time to think about it.

Personally, the powers system for it is how I think the D&D 5e system should look like. Why have 10+ variants of 'magic bolt' when you can have one and add trappings? Brilliant.
 

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