Dragonbane Post-Mortem

[Retreater]

I have a few dungeon crawler boardgames: Descent, Hero quest, Dungeon Universalis, the lightweight version of Gloomhaven, Massive Darkness, D&D Adventure System (Ravenloft et al), Altar Quest. She doesn't seem to be interested in them and will only occasionally play Hero Quest if I ask nicely.
She likes games that aren't dungeon crawlers - Terraforming Mars, Lords of Waterdeep, etc - but I'm not really into worker placement and complex games. The way my brain works is that RPGs are mostly similar and I can adapt to run them, but every time I sit down to play a boardgame it's like learning a new language. I do poorly and either wreck the team if it's cooperative, or I look like a fool and lose badly in competitive games.
I do have Fabula Ultima, and right after we got going with Savage Worlds, I thought "man, I should've remembered to suggest Fabula Ultima." I think my group will be hesitant because of the "anime" look of the game - none of us are fans, maybe with the exception of Zelda games.

 

[Wolfpack48]

She has just sort of recently (past 5 years) gotten into video game RPGs: Zelda, Skyrim, Baldurs Gate, etc. She has asked me why TTRPGs can't be more like them - save points, fast travel, endless inventory, quick healing potions everywhere, frequent loot drops, etc.
I try to explain that a human GM can't function like a computer program and that TTRPGs would lose something if you had save points and similar mechanics.
She primarily likes getting together with friends and feeling powerful. She doesn't care about story, world building, immersion, roleplaying, or anything more than moving a mini, rolling dice, and killing stuff.

Ever consider the Hero System (Champions roots)? I seem to remember lots of dice and damage in that game, and it seems to really lean into powerful characters.

 

[The Soloist]

Cards is not what I was expecting you to say. Sadly that makes Dragonbane a pass for me. Despite my enjoyment of Savage Worlds, the card based initiative broke down as the table I play at is pretty big and passing the cards around was a pain. Pushed me to pick up SotDL and I never looked back. Thanks for sharing your experience. Good luck with your players. Does sound like a challenging mix of desired player system outcomes.

You could replace the cards with players/monsters rolling one d20 for each attack they have, then record scores using the lowest die as the number 1 initiative. It's a roll equal or under system. One is a Dragon (critical success) and 20 is a Demon (critical failure).

 

[Retreater]

Ever consider the Hero System (Champions roots)? I seem to remember lots of dice and damage in that game, and it seems to really lean into powerful characters.

I might be confused, but I am recalling that it's a very crunchy system with a lot of customization. (I think I've seen it compared to GURPS.) If that's the case, I don't think these players have the interest to engage with mechanics like that.

 

[Aldarc]

I do have Fabula Ultima, and right after we got going with Savage Worlds, I thought "man, I should've remembered to suggest Fabula Ultima." I think my group will be hesitant because of the "anime" look of the game - none of us are fans, maybe with the exception of Zelda games.

I think that it's fair. My partner isn't really into JRPGs or anime either, but the game does have the sort of video game logic that your wife may enjoy.

 

[Delazar]

I would gladly convert The Enemy Within campaign to Dragonbane.

I've been thinking of using the Dragonbane ruleset to play in the Warhammer setting after the huge disappointment (for me at least) of WH4E. How serious was your statement?

 

[Retreater]

I've been thinking of using the Dragonbane ruleset to play in the Warhammer setting after the huge disappointment (for me at least) of WH4E. How serious was your statement?

I mean, if I were going to run anything from WFRPG, I would use Dragonbane. If my group wanted to continue with Dragonbane and preferred something with a little more intrigue and less combat than Paths of Glory, I would've gone with The Enemy Within Campaign, converted to Dragonbane.

The percentile-based skill system is easily converted. Just divide the WFRPG percentages by 5 and you have a Dragonbane d20 skill DC. But so much of the enemies in WFRPG have direct analogues in Dragonbane: goblins, bandits, trolls, etc. I think it would work just fine. I imagine it would get easy enough to convert on the fly at the table.

 

[theBardic life]

As is my tradition, each time a game ends, I try to learn from it. This time I'm looking at the new Free League edition of Dragonbane and our 12-session campaign.

(Note: many of my group's struggles have been noted in another thread: How Dragonbane Pointed out the Clashing Desires of My Gaming Group)

About the Group

Player A: my wife, a power gamer who likes butt kicking and action-packed adventure. Her favorite systems are Pathfinder 2 and D&D 4E because of the tactical combat options and big damage potential.
Player B: our neighbor (who grew up with THAC0-era D&D)
Player C: my neighbor’s co-worker (who also grew up with the same era of D&D, but prefers more story-focused games)
(Additionally, we were joined on two sessions by Player B's two college-age sons, home from break. Also, on our final session, my friend from out-of-town joined as a special guest.)

Since forming as a group about two years ago, we played two 5e campaigns, short forays into 7e Gamma World (based on 4e) & Savage Worlds Holler, an 8-month campaign in 4e D&D, a handful of 1-shots (Dread, Monster of the Week, Alice is Missing).

My Experience with Dragonbane (and the Basic RPG engine)

So, I have a long history with Call of Cthulhu. The first edition of Dragonbane was based on that same Chaosium engine, though it's been revised over the years. I thought many times how much I'd love the mechanics of Call of Cthulhu, a little more survivable, and in a fantasy setting. Unfortunately, when I looked into RuneQuest, it wasn't it. But I really fell in love with Dragonbane. Streamlined, character-driven, exploration procedures, built-in tactics built on the narrative for monsters, captivating art, etc. My first foray into Dragonbane was a rare time I got to be a player. I was a bow-wielding huntsman. I think our group survived about 5 total hours of play before we had a TPK and abandoned the system. But I was interested to try it with my own group.

The Selection of Dragonbane

My group was down to 3 regular players and most of us wanted something simpler than 4E's approach to tactical combat that would also accommodate 3 players. Player C was instantly down for trying Dragonbane. I gave her the quickstart rules and she was sold. It took a few sessions, but Player B eventually came around to it. However, Player A never warmed up to it.

Player A: "A is for ACTION!!!"

Her: "I feel weak. We can't do anything."
Me: "You guys killed a giant. Not like an ogre. You killed a damn giant!"
Her: "One round, I only did 16 points of damage."
Me: "It only has 74 hit points. That's more than 20% of its health in a single attack!"
Her: "The numbers are just so small."
Me: "So you'd prefer doing 64 points of damage in a round against a giant that had 296 hit points?"
Her: "Yeah! That would be awesome!"

Her: "We're so weak - anything can kill us."
Me: "How many character deaths have you had in this campaign?"
Her: "None. It just seems more dangerous."

Her: "I don't like that I can only do one thing a round."
Me: "How much would you like to be able to do?"
Her: "Like, I can only pull out my weapon, move up to the monster, and attack it. In Pathfinder 2, I get three actions."
Me: "Yeah, you can use those to pull out your weapon, move up to the monster, and attack it."
Her: "It seems like more in Pathfinder 2."

This was like literally beating my head against a wall. She did decide that playing Dragonbane with two friends and a GM who really liked it was better than playing no game at all. Especially since she got an 8-month campaign in her favorite system of all time (4E), I think it's a fair trade.

She posed this question: "Why are complex games the only ones where you can feel powerful? All the streamlined games, you're one hit away from death."

What Happened?

We had a TPK fighting the BBEG of the campaign in the last fight. Even though the campaign is salvageable, it feels almost cheapening their loss to continue the campaign "as if nothing happened." And if we follow the logical course, stuff is going to be really bad. Not to mention that you don't really "level up" in Dragonbane, so the group doesn't feel as though they can get more powerful and defeat the BBEG, especially since he's more powerful for taking the McGuffin magic item from the party.

So we're at least going to take a break from the system for a while and give some distance.

What Next?

Player B and C seem to be wanting to go in the direction of old school D&D (THAC0-era). Player A wants to be a badass (which really can't happen in TSR-era gaming). We're going to meet over card games next week and discuss what we want. Could be Savage Worlds. Could be old school D&D. Could be Age of Sigmar Soulbound. I have no idea.

Any questions about Dragonbane?

First off I love the effort you are going into to learn and improve, your group are a bunch of lucky duckies.
This quote really stood out to me: "Why are complex games the only ones where you can feel powerful? All the streamlined games, you're one hit away from death."
I feel this since I started with 5e and then moved to older D&D/ OSR style games because I found the power curve of 5e made me feel the game got easier as we levelled up. (I felt sorry for our newbie DM trying to design encounters for an 8th level party but that's another story).
But I think Player A is hitting on something I've noticed too, and while I like that level of danger I guess Player A does not, so it may be an issue of exploring what the reason you are at the table is for?
Thanks for sharing

 

[Retreater]

First off I love the effort you are going into to learn and improve, your group are a bunch of lucky duckies.

Thanks. I don't want to feel like I am stagnant in any of my hobbies. I hope that you enjoy reading the thread and can take something away from it.

This quote really stood out to me: "Why are complex games the only ones where you can feel powerful? All the streamlined games, you're one hit away from death."
I feel this since I started with 5e and then moved to older D&D/ OSR style games because I found the power curve of 5e made me feel the game got easier as we levelled up. (I felt sorry for our newbie DM trying to design encounters for an 8th level party but that's another story).

For us, that's the million-dollar question. Player A also happens to be my wife, so it would be awesome if we could find a system we both really liked. Trust me when I tell you I've purchased and read a lot of systems, watched videos, read reviews, and created spreadsheets of 90+ games I've had in consideration for this group.
Options add complexity, and Player A wants a game that has a lot of options. But she also doesn't want to read and study the rules, learn advanced combat systems (like how to Aim, Called Shots, Grapple, etc.), work on exciting builds, play spellcasters, etc.
Having Power Cards from 4E that clearly listed her combat options was probably the sweet spot.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Fabula Ultima really might be the way to go for player A because the interactions in the default-multiclassing system aren't actually super crunchy, but they give you that feeling of "oh hey, my abilities combo in a cheesy-fun way."

It uses a metacurrency for narrative power where players get a bunch of points to just declare facts and are encouraged to use it to slam problems down.

You aren't allowed to actually die unless its a heroic sacrifice that accomplishes something cool.

There's no positioning, you line up like ye olde final fantasy games. You have inventory points and just spend them on a menu of options to whip a potion out of your bag as if you always had it.