Dragonbane Post-Mortem

[Retreater]

As is my tradition, each time a game ends, I try to learn from it. This time I'm looking at the new Free League edition of Dragonbane and our 12-session campaign.

(Note: many of my group's struggles have been noted in another thread: How Dragonbane Pointed out the Clashing Desires of My Gaming Group)

About the Group

Player A: my wife, a power gamer who likes butt kicking and action-packed adventure. Her favorite systems are Pathfinder 2 and D&D 4E because of the tactical combat options and big damage potential.
Player B: our neighbor (who grew up with THAC0-era D&D)
Player C: my neighbor’s co-worker (who also grew up with the same era of D&D, but prefers more story-focused games)
(Additionally, we were joined on two sessions by Player B's two college-age sons, home from break. Also, on our final session, my friend from out-of-town joined as a special guest.)

Since forming as a group about two years ago, we played two 5e campaigns, short forays into 7e Gamma World (based on 4e) & Savage Worlds Holler, an 8-month campaign in 4e D&D, a handful of 1-shots (Dread, Monster of the Week, Alice is Missing).

My Experience with Dragonbane (and the Basic RPG engine)

So, I have a long history with Call of Cthulhu. The first edition of Dragonbane was based on that same Chaosium engine, though it's been revised over the years. I thought many times how much I'd love the mechanics of Call of Cthulhu, a little more survivable, and in a fantasy setting. Unfortunately, when I looked into RuneQuest, it wasn't it. But I really fell in love with Dragonbane. Streamlined, character-driven, exploration procedures, built-in tactics built on the narrative for monsters, captivating art, etc. My first foray into Dragonbane was a rare time I got to be a player. I was a bow-wielding huntsman. I think our group survived about 5 total hours of play before we had a TPK and abandoned the system. But I was interested to try it with my own group.

The Selection of Dragonbane

My group was down to 3 regular players and most of us wanted something simpler than 4E's approach to tactical combat that would also accommodate 3 players. Player C was instantly down for trying Dragonbane. I gave her the quickstart rules and she was sold. It took a few sessions, but Player B eventually came around to it. However, Player A never warmed up to it.

Player A: "A is for ACTION!!!"

Her: "I feel weak. We can't do anything."
Me: "You guys killed a giant. Not like an ogre. You killed a damn giant!"
Her: "One round, I only did 16 points of damage."
Me: "It only has 74 hit points. That's more than 20% of its health in a single attack!"
Her: "The numbers are just so small."
Me: "So you'd prefer doing 64 points of damage in a round against a giant that had 296 hit points?"
Her: "Yeah! That would be awesome!"

Her: "We're so weak - anything can kill us."
Me: "How many character deaths have you had in this campaign?"
Her: "None. It just seems more dangerous."

Her: "I don't like that I can only do one thing a round."
Me: "How much would you like to be able to do?"
Her: "Like, I can only pull out my weapon, move up to the monster, and attack it. In Pathfinder 2, I get three actions."
Me: "Yeah, you can use those to pull out your weapon, move up to the monster, and attack it."
Her: "It seems like more in Pathfinder 2."

This was like literally beating my head against a wall. She did decide that playing Dragonbane with two friends and a GM who really liked it was better than playing no game at all. Especially since she got an 8-month campaign in her favorite system of all time (4E), I think it's a fair trade.

She posed this question: "Why are complex games the only ones where you can feel powerful? All the streamlined games, you're one hit away from death."

What Happened?

We had a TPK fighting the BBEG of the campaign in the last fight. Even though the campaign is salvageable, it feels almost cheapening their loss to continue the campaign "as if nothing happened." And if we follow the logical course, stuff is going to be really bad. Not to mention that you don't really "level up" in Dragonbane, so the group doesn't feel as though they can get more powerful and defeat the BBEG, especially since he's more powerful for taking the McGuffin magic item from the party.

So we're at least going to take a break from the system for a while and give some distance.

What Next?

Player B and C seem to be wanting to go in the direction of old school D&D (THAC0-era). Player A wants to be a badass (which really can't happen in TSR-era gaming). We're going to meet over card games next week and discuss what we want. Could be Savage Worlds. Could be old school D&D. Could be Age of Sigmar Soulbound. I have no idea.

Any questions about Dragonbane?

 

[payn]

Player A: "A is for ACTION!!!"

Her: "I feel weak. We can't do anything."
Me: "You guys killed a giant. Not like an ogre. You killed a damn giant!"
Her: "One round, I only did 16 points of damage."
Me: "It only has 74 hit points. That's more than 20% of its health in a single attack!"
Her: "The numbers are just so small."
Me: "So you'd prefer doing 64 points of damage in a round against a giant that had 296 hit points?"
Her: "Yeah! That would be awesome!"

Her: "We're so weak - anything can kill us."
Me: "How many character deaths have you had in this campaign?"
Her: "None. It just seems more dangerous."

Her: "I don't like that I can only do one thing a round."
Me: "How much would you like to be able to do?"
Her: "Like, I can only pull out my weapon, move up to the monster, and attack it. In Pathfinder 2, I get three actions."
Me: "Yeah, you can use those to pull out your weapon, move up to the monster, and attack it."
Her: "It seems like more in Pathfinder 2."

This was like literally beating my head against a wall. She did decide that playing Dragonbane with two friends and a GM who really liked it was better than playing no game at all. Especially since she got an 8-month campaign in her favorite system of all time (4E), I think it's a fair trade.

She posed this question: "Why are complex games the only ones where you can feel powerful? All the streamlined games, you're one hit away from death."

It sounds like this is the nut you really need to crack. Through the conversation you can see her character does a lot of damage, and does three things just like PF2, yet it doesn't feel powerful. Also, the danger level makes the character feel weak.

Its interesting to think about because I felt pretty hopeless a lot when I played PF2. It wasnt instant hopelessness like old school where a PC just gets one shot dropped, it was a slow moving train wreck. Maybe its the slow process of having the ability to take a beating for several, or many, rounds before the ax really drops?

Im not sure where the answer is becasue I dont have a similar play perspective. Though, continually delivering old school games isnt going to work well unless you can uncover the feeling here which seems part mechanical, but mostly perspective based.

 

[Distracted DM]

It sounds like this is the nut you really need to crack. Through the conversation you can see her character does a lot of damage, and does three things just like PF2, yet it doesn't feel powerful. Also, the danger level makes the character feel weak.

Its interesting to think about because I felt pretty hopeless a lot when I played PF2. It wasnt instant hopelessness like old school where a PC just gets one shot dropped, it was a slow moving train wreck. Maybe its the slow process of having the ability to take a beating for several, or many, rounds before the ax really drops?

Im not sure where the answer is becasue I dont have a similar play perspective. Though, continually delivering old school games isnt going to work well unless you can uncover the feeling here which seems part mechanical, but mostly perspective based.

The fantasy of driving a tank vs driving a bicycle? Tank = dnd5e, you take damage but usually not enough to knock you down in one shot, so you know where you stand, you can assess. Bicycle = old school, you might get knocked down in one shot. That might just be the perception, anyway, cuz after a few levels both games will provide you with more HP so you're not getting KO'd instantly... though leveling in old games can take a lot longer, depending.

Or I'm just completely off-base :'D 'twas a shower thought.

 

[Luther Malevolent]

What Next?

Player B and C seem to be wanting to go in the direction of old school D&D (THAC0-era). Player A wants to be a badass (which really can't happen in TSR-era gaming).

Not true my friend, not true at all.

Let me tell you of my munchkin friends and our twinked out characters playing D&D back in the mid 80’s. All you need is Unearthed Arcana, take characters designed here back to modules that came out almost a decade earlier and you will be a god amongst men even at first level. If you want to get even more lopsided in the players favour hunt through early Dragon magazine for some of the optional classes.

Use the UA stat generating method. You should have a pretty good chance at getting a few 18’s on each character.

Remember that hp bonus for Con is per hd and the ranger starts with 2 so he can easily start with >20 hp. If you want bad asses let them re-roll bad hp rolls.

Use specialized weapons for the bonuses to hit and attack rates.

Use deaths door rule so your pc’s don’t die until -10 hp and keep a henchman around to bandage anyone up who falls.

Give out damage bonuses for strength to ranged weapons. This can be huge with the rate of fire of things like darts.

Let players re-roll bad stats or let them them suicide bad overall characters and start over.

Don’t believe the osr hype. There’s a reason munchkin was a term long before the board game and Monty Haul campaigns were a thing. Where there’s a will there’s a way and the TSR rules were always loosey-goosey enough to allow for overpowered badasses.

 

[Wolfpack48]

As is my tradition, each time a game ends, I try to learn from it. This time I'm looking at the new Free League edition of Dragonbane and our 12-session campaign.

(Note: many of my group's struggles have been noted in another thread: How Dragonbane Pointed out the Clashing Desires of My Gaming Group)

About the Group

Player A: my wife, a power gamer who likes butt kicking and action-packed adventure. Her favorite systems are Pathfinder 2 and D&D 4E because of the tactical combat options and big damage potential.
Player B: our neighbor (who grew up with THAC0-era D&D)
Player C: my neighbor’s co-worker (who also grew up with the same era of D&D, but prefers more story-focused games)
(Additionally, we were joined on two sessions by Player B's two college-age sons, home from break. Also, on our final session, my friend from out-of-town joined as a special guest.)

Since forming as a group about two years ago, we played two 5e campaigns, short forays into 7e Gamma World (based on 4e) & Savage Worlds Holler, an 8-month campaign in 4e D&D, a handful of 1-shots (Dread, Monster of the Week, Alice is Missing).

My Experience with Dragonbane (and the Basic RPG engine)

So, I have a long history with Call of Cthulhu. The first edition of Dragonbane was based on that same Chaosium engine, though it's been revised over the years. I thought many times how much I'd love the mechanics of Call of Cthulhu, a little more survivable, and in a fantasy setting. Unfortunately, when I looked into RuneQuest, it wasn't it. But I really fell in love with Dragonbane. Streamlined, character-driven, exploration procedures, built-in tactics built on the narrative for monsters, captivating art, etc. My first foray into Dragonbane was a rare time I got to be a player. I was a bow-wielding huntsman. I think our group survived about 5 total hours of play before we had a TPK and abandoned the system. But I was interested to try it with my own group.

The Selection of Dragonbane

My group was down to 3 regular players and most of us wanted something simpler than 4E's approach to tactical combat that would also accommodate 3 players. Player C was instantly down for trying Dragonbane. I gave her the quickstart rules and she was sold. It took a few sessions, but Player B eventually came around to it. However, Player A never warmed up to it.

Player A: "A is for ACTION!!!"

Her: "I feel weak. We can't do anything."
Me: "You guys killed a giant. Not like an ogre. You killed a damn giant!"
Her: "One round, I only did 16 points of damage."
Me: "It only has 74 hit points. That's more than 20% of its health in a single attack!"
Her: "The numbers are just so small."
Me: "So you'd prefer doing 64 points of damage in a round against a giant that had 296 hit points?"
Her: "Yeah! That would be awesome!"

Her: "We're so weak - anything can kill us."
Me: "How many character deaths have you had in this campaign?"
Her: "None. It just seems more dangerous."

Her: "I don't like that I can only do one thing a round."
Me: "How much would you like to be able to do?"
Her: "Like, I can only pull out my weapon, move up to the monster, and attack it. In Pathfinder 2, I get three actions."
Me: "Yeah, you can use those to pull out your weapon, move up to the monster, and attack it."
Her: "It seems like more in Pathfinder 2."

This was like literally beating my head against a wall. She did decide that playing Dragonbane with two friends and a GM who really liked it was better than playing no game at all. Especially since she got an 8-month campaign in her favorite system of all time (4E), I think it's a fair trade.

She posed this question: "Why are complex games the only ones where you can feel powerful? All the streamlined games, you're one hit away from death."

What Happened?

We had a TPK fighting the BBEG of the campaign in the last fight. Even though the campaign is salvageable, it feels almost cheapening their loss to continue the campaign "as if nothing happened." And if we follow the logical course, stuff is going to be really bad. Not to mention that you don't really "level up" in Dragonbane, so the group doesn't feel as though they can get more powerful and defeat the BBEG, especially since he's more powerful for taking the McGuffin magic item from the party.

So we're at least going to take a break from the system for a while and give some distance.

What Next?

Player B and C seem to be wanting to go in the direction of old school D&D (THAC0-era). Player A wants to be a badass (which really can't happen in TSR-era gaming). We're going to meet over card games next week and discuss what we want. Could be Savage Worlds. Could be old school D&D. Could be Age of Sigmar Soulbound. I have no idea.

Any questions about Dragonbane?

Strangely enough we’re getting ready to use Dragonbane to run some 1e AD&D modules. I think a beginning Dragonbane character is actually tougher than a Level 1 AD&D character. 5e really has upped the power scale.

 

[Voadam]

What Next?

Player B and C seem to be wanting to go in the direction of old school D&D (THAC0-era). Player A wants to be a badass (which really can't happen in TSR-era gaming). We're going to meet over card games next week and discuss what we want. Could be Savage Worlds. Could be old school D&D. Could be Age of Sigmar Soulbound. I have no idea.

I think feeling badass can be done in TSR D&D, just not at real low levels.

BECMI fighter weapon mastery is pretty empowering for fighters, particularly the sword parrying ability.

High level AD&D felt pretty Elric to me at different times with cool magic items and more spells.

I would personally go with ascending AC and probably a homebrewed variant thief built off the fighter chassis instead of the MU, trading armor for thief skills and probably just give them backstab as something they do to get +4 to hit and big damage on their one attack.

I haven't played Savage Worlds but it is supposed to be actiony (pulp combat appropriate) and decently simple mechanically, right?

 

[Retreater]

Strangely enough we’re getting ready to use Dragonbane to run some 1e AD&D modules. I think a beginning Dragonbane character is actually tougher than a Level 1 AD&D character. 5e really has upped the power scale.

I agree. In some ways, I'd say a beginning Dragonbane character can be more powerful than a 5e character. Like, a beginning Dragonbane party can take out a troll, manticore, or giant. There's not a strict limit on what a character should be able to do.

 

[Voadam]

Oh, and so did you like the Dragonbane system in play yourself?

Anything frustrating about the system for you as a DM?

Anything really cool that came out in play that would not have in D&D?

 

[Retreater]

Yes. I loved the play of Dragonbane. It was easy to run, freeing.

1. Players knew the "DC" of every check
2. XP was based on what characters did and advanced the skills they used
3. Monster tactics were flavorful and didn't require strategic expertise to run
4. Combats were fast
5. Pushing rolls brought roleplaying and mechanical strategy together
6. Travel, exploration, random encounters were clearly codified and easy to run

What was frustrating...

1. The rulebook wasn't the best organized
2. Some rules just weren't explained well. Like healing and rest. But I guess that's what you get in a book that contains around 50 pages of rules.
3. The balance can be really, really off. Cakewalk or TPK

 

[Voadam]

How would you say it feels compared to other brp games like dark age call of Cthulhu or pulp Cthulhu or runequest?